Sorens Really What If Thread

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

sorry just had to quote that- funniest thing i've read today!

Lanc;

You should read "Operation Sealion" by Peter Flemming (Yes, THAT Flemming, Ian's younger brother).

He goes into great and exacting detail about how well Sealion was planned for by the OKW. First draughts of operational orders for invading England had been made in December of 1939 and were constatnly revised all the way up to August, 1940.

The main impracticality of the whole operation was the German Army's fundamental mis-interpretation of what crossing the Channel would entail. Infact, both the German Army and Navy initailly displayed an incredible optimism and an uncharacteristic naiveity about the crossing. It wasn't until August that they realised that Sealiion couldn't be done as easily as first anticipated.

Much of the initail planning for Sealion is a masterwork of self-delusion and fantasy but even so, the OKW was preparing and organising it for 4 months at least.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by CurzonDax

I am sorry if this ticks off a lot of people but I personally think that the Stuka was a piece of junk (Dauntless fan). They were short ranged and could not carry a good load. I was never impressed with thier record exept when they were going against 2nd rate powers such as Poland and such.

So in this what if situation I think that even if you covered the skies with Stukas, the RN would have turned them into guacamole.

:{)

The Dauntless was deffinatly better but the Stuka was not bad at the beginnin of the war and the dedicated anti tank versions of it were also pretty succesfull.

[syscom3]

I would say the dauntless was the better of the two for anti-shipping, and the Stuka better for land attack

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That I can completely agree with. The Dauntless was a better overall aircraft too though.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

the OKW was preparing and organising it for 4 months at least.

D-Day took 4 years of planning.............

[Udet]

Jabberwocky:

Sorry but I have to disagree.

I am aware of the German assembly of barges and tugs in the Channel coast; also I am aware of the OKW´s directive to proceed further with the alleged invasion of England.

There is plenty of sound evidence that will help strenghtening the notion of Hitler not being really interested about invading, let alone occupying England; I am sure you are aware of all the facts I´m about to comment here:

Firstly, and very firstly, who declared first war against the other?

For whatever reasons it was England who first declared war. The Reich had begun its move eastwards and the Brits decided to pick the fight.


Hitler offered peace to England twice: after the fall of Poland and after France surrendered, both rejected.

Contrary to what most apparently do believe, Chamberlain backed Churchill´s decision to refuse any peace offer issued by Hitler.

The fall of France, and the peace offer that followed, includes the acquital of the BEF, when the table was served to proceed ahead with its execution. The BEF was allowed to escape.

An authentic intention, then a plan, to invade and occupy England must imply the necessary destruction of the armed forces of the British Empire, oddly they let the BEF get away.

Why do you think the BEF was allowed to live?

In spite of all that, Mr. Churchill continued to present Germany as a menace to British people; even when a massive number of British soldiers returned home and had the chance of seeing their families again.

You do not believe Churchill´s hogwash on the "survival of Christian civilization depending on the Battle of Britain" do you?


So we have a country that:

(i) declared war against Germany, when no imminent threat was being posed to the people and culture of Great Britain and the integrity and possessions of the Empire.
(ii) sent its army into the continent
(ii-a) got its ass kicked on the battlefield -utterly-
(ii-b) was spared from extermination when caught in a mousetrap
(ii-c) was allowed to escape -in their trousers only-
(iii) received a peace offer issued after the battle... from the very winner of the battle.

What do you think? But of course you disagree don´t you?


The Battle of Britain. I stick to the notion of Germany launching the air offensive of mid/late 1940 to push England to negotiate peace and not to ensure the air superiority that would allow the alleged invasion to proceed.

Right, the Germans failed, and since no signs of any British faltering were visible, they decided the cancel operations over the Island. The Luftwaffe did not cancel operations over England due to "catastrophic losses" as depicted by the allied propaganda. There were days with high losses, certainly, but nothing the Germans could not handle.

As I have said before, oddly after the BoB, the Luftwaffe pounded all its enemies in operations following 1940, and not only yugoslavians and soviets, also British: in early 1941, I./JG 27 arrived in North Africa an shot down RAF and SAAF planes at will, suffering extremely low casualties.

I do not know Jabberwocky, you might laugh, you might clench your teeth and stroke the keys...who knows, I do not know. What I can do tell you is your case is weak.

[plan_D]

I will not bother with the vast majority of that post since it was a load of anti-British crap spouting. I will leave that to the others. The one thing to question though is, why did Germany spend all that effort and loss on collecting all available seafaring craft for transport in the English Channel? As a joke?

[Jabberwocky]

Stunning bit of reasoning Udet.

Hitler directly orders preparations for the invasion of England because he wasn't going to invade.

From the 1st two paragraphs of Furher Directive No 16, July 16th, 1940.

As England, in spite of the hoplessness of her military position, has so far shown herself unwilling to come to a compromise, I have decided to begin to prepare for, and if necessary, carry out, an invasion of England.

This operation is dictated by the means of eliminating Great Britain as a base from which the war against Germany can be fought, and if necessary the island will be occupied

The General Staff trained infantry in amphibious landing operations, moved in specalty forces and convert 250 tanks so that they had amphibious capabilities for what reason then?

30% of the canal and river barges in northern Germany, Belgium and France and the whole of the transport capability of the Kriegsmarine are diverted to France.

Germany had already assigned Ernst Bohle as Reichskommisar for Great Britain. The OKW put out instructions on September 9th headed "Orders Concerning the Organisation and Function of Military Government in England". The Gestapo had already prepared notices in both German and English, in bulk, for use in a conqured Britain.

The LuftWaffe parachuted spies in whose sole objective was to provide intelligence on South-western England which would help the leading formations of an invasion. 6 were captured in August, 5 in September.

Hitler intended to invade England. His 'appeals to reason' were done precisely because he was thinking of future conquests in the East. Why waste more troops and resources when he wanted to be elsewhere? The answer is simple; With a pacific Great Britain on his door step he wouldn't have to repeat the folly of the Kaiser and get Germany involved in a protracted two front war. Germany would have a free hand in Europe. Fortunately, the British people, embodied in their finest by Churchill, refused to back down from a bully who had given them a bloody nose.

They fought, and fought so well that they caused Germany to pause, reconsider and then give up its plans to invade England. With the RAF in the air and the RN in the Channel there was no way that Germany could land in the United Kingdom. Defeated in the air during the Battle of Britain, the first precondition to be able to launch Sealion was chopped away. After this Germany could do nothing but bomb cities by night and watch the RAF gain in strength and confidence by day. Hitler and Germany, beaten in the air, could do nothing but turn to the Western Desert and to the 'rotten edifice' of the Soviet Union.

Here is a little poem by A.P. Herbert which sums up the British feelings in the period;

Napoleon tried. The Dutch were on their way,
A Norman did it- and a Dane or two,
Some sailor-King may follow one fine day;
But not, I think, a low land-rat like you.

I know that I won't have convinced you, all evidence to the contrary. Alas, I did but try.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Sorry Udet but I have to disagree with you. Do you really think that England could stand aside while Germany took over all of Europe? If you do then you are more naive than I thought.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Sorry Udet but I have to disagree with you. Do you really think that England could stand aside while Germany took over all of Europe? If you do then you are more naive than I thought.

And what are you saying - the UK sould of pursued peace with Hitler???

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

And what are you saying - the UK sould of pursued peace with Hitler???

No ofcourse not, I was argueing his post that England was the agresser. England did what any free nation had to do. They did the right thing by declaring war on Germany. Read my post.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Originally Posted by Udet

So we have a country that:

(i) declared war against Germany, when no imminent threat was being posed to the people and culture of Great Britain and the integrity and possessions of the Empire.

we declared war not only due to relations with Poland and other European contries, but because it was obvious a war in Europe would affect Britian, we weren't gonna wait until the germans took france before declairing war, we were not the aggressers, we offered hitler an altermatum, he refused- he knew he was getting war............

(ii) sent its army into the continent

yes we did, because we're at war, it's what waring nations do what is your point?

(ii-a) got its ass kicked on the battlefield -utterly-

the BEF were not "utterly" kicked, our numbers were tiny compared to Germany's and, i can't remember which battle it was at but the BEF caused the only german defeat coming through France, it was the French army that was "kicked"...........

(ii-b) was spared from extermination when caught in a mousetrap
(ii-c) was allowed to escape -in their trousers only-

Let's all give a round of appause for Adolf Hitler, perhaps he wasn't that bad after all i mean if he let us escape, that's pure crap! Hitler was supprised by the speed at which the forces were pushed back that he thought it was a trap so he held his troops back, it wasn't out of the kindness of his heart......

(iii) received a peace offer issued after the battle... from the very winner of the battle.

well that's very nice of the germans, think about it, if the germans could invade and take over the UK so easily why didn't they just do it? perhaps they offered the peace because they knew it wouldn't be easy and would try and threaten us??

[Gnomey]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

we declared war not only due to relations with Poland and other European contries, but because it was obvious a war in Europe would affect Britian, we weren't gonna wait until the germans took france before declairing war, we were not the aggressers, we offered hitler an altermatum, he refused- he knew he was getting war............

yes we did, because we're at war, it's what waring nations do what is your point?

the BEF were not "utterly" kicked, our numbers were tiny compared to Germany's and, i can't remember which battle it was at but the BEF caused the only german defeat coming through France, it was the French army that was "kicked"...........

Let's all give a round of appause for Adolf Hitler, perhaps he wasn't that bad after all i mean if he let us escape, that's pure crap! Hitler was supprised by the speed at which the forces were pushed back that he thought it was a trap so he held his troops back, it wasn't out of the kindness of his heart......

well that's very nice of the germans, think about it, if the germans could invade and take over the UK so easily why didn't they just do it? perhaps they offered the peace because they knew it wouldn't be easy and would try and threaten us??

Good points Lanc. Chamberlain issued the ultimatum because he (and the government) had had enough of Hitler and his constant breaking of promises (Rhineland, Anschluss, Czechoslovakia). They decided enough was enough and declared war against the German aggressor. The BEF put it a good show in France and as Lanc said it was the French who got kicked not the British (I think you are referring to Arras Lanc).

[Udet]

First off, Mr. Plan_D, you are incorrect.

I am not "anti-British", at all.

I do have the bloody right to question whatever I deem is worth being questioned. So I´m to proceed accordingly.

PlanD, there are many facts of WWII that for guys like you are crystal clear; no further questioning or gathering of possible new evidence is necessary for the truth is now public domain. I of course do think different regarding some of such facts,

If it sets you off to read my comments just skip them.


Jabberwocky:

Adendum to my previous comment: Hitler had great respect and admiration for the British Empire long tradition of power and world domination.


Lancaster Kicks ass:

Right, Great Britain issued an ultimatum to Germany to no avail -of course-. Now tell me, why is it no declaration of war was issued against the Soviet Union when it joined Germany in invading Poland?

What was Great Britain´s decision making pattern there?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

No ofcourse not, I was argueing his post that England was the agresser. England did what any free nation had to do. They did the right thing by declaring war on Germany. Read my post.

Sorry Adler - I meant that question for Udet