Spit & Hurri, FW & 109

[schwarzpanzer]

Just some questions I have:

The myth is that the Spitfire could out-turn the Me109, but apparently they could turn together? (I will post a source later, honestly Soren!)

The Hurricane could out-turn the Spitfire? (and thus the Me?) (I got this from PlanD - thanks again)

The FW190A1 could out-turn the Me109, yet not the Spifire? - This contradicts the above. (German mock combat report)

The Spitfire MkXIV could turn with the Spitfire MkI? (PlanD)

- but had inferior handling & roll rate. (RAF pilot, have source if needed).

The Spitfire MkXIV could out-turn the FW190A8? - Again, there's a contradiction. (Same source as one above)

Thanks to anyone who can solve this for me.

[FLYBOYJ]

Fly a Hurricane and keep turning!

[loomaluftwaffe]

the Fw-190 is good at roll rate but not turning
skilled 109 pilots out turn Spits on a regular basis (read from previous posts)
dunno about the Hurri

[timshatz]

Wing loading a bit high on the 190 to think it would turn inside any of the above (except maybe the later marks of the Spitfire just because it was carrying so much extra weight that wasn't on the earlier versions).

[plan_D]

The Hurricane can out-turn both the Spitfire and Bf-109 at low speeds. I thought that was a well-known fact.

The Spitfire XIV couldn't turn with a Spitfire I. I never said that. The Spitfire XIV could turn with a Spitfire IX.

[schwarzpanzer]

Sorry PlanD, I suppose a Me109K couldn't turn with an Emil either?

I know though that the airframe was upgraded from the G-10 onwards, so maybe it could?

I wonder how the cropped Spit performed?

There weren't many Spit fuselage upgrades though were they, I mean to improve maneuverability?

I would never have thought that a 109 could actually out-turn a Spit!! - That re-writes the history books, doesn't it!

What a shock for a Spit pilot that must have been!

Which variants were they please? - Any links?

So the Hurri is more maneuverable - makes sense.

I think the mock combat report must be wrong, I'll have to check again, maybe a mistake was made.

Thanks for the replies.

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by schwarzpanzer

Just some questions I have:

The myth is that the Spitfire could out-turn the Me109, but apparently they could turn together? (I will post a source later, honestly Soren!)

The Hurricane could out-turn the Spitfire? (and thus the Me?) (I got this from PlanD - thanks again)

The FW190A1 could out-turn the Me109, yet not the Spifire? - This contradicts the above. (German mock combat report)

The Spitfire MkXIV could turn with the Spitfire MkI? (PlanD)

- but had inferior handling & roll rate. (RAF pilot, have source if needed).

The Spitfire MkXIV could out-turn the FW190A8? - Again, there's a contradiction. (Same source as one above)

Thanks to anyone who can solve this for me.

You've also got to make the distinction between two things when considering turn performance:

Turning Radius (how small the turning circle is in meters/feet) and Turning Rate (or how fast the turn is completed in seconds or deg/sec).

The ability to make a smaller circle than your opponent may not necessarily be an absolute advantage if your opponent can still do 90 or 180 or 360 degrees in less time than you.

If you can do a 360 degree turn in 18 seconds, but with a 1000 ft radius, is that better or worse than being able to do a 360 degree turn in 20 seconds but with a 800 ft radius?

For example, Soviet data from TSAGI of the Spitfire Vb gives it a 235m turning circle and a 18.5 second turning time.
The same data sheet gives the P-39D2 a 255m turning circle but a 17.7 second turn time. Bigger circle, but faster rate of turn.
Similarly, the data sheet also gives a 290m turn radius but a 17-18 second turn time for the Yak-9U. Bigger circle and similar rate of turn.

So, the Yak-9 would get through the tunr the fastest, but the Spitfire would be able to turn the tightest circle.

[plan_D]

"Sorry PlanD, I suppose a Me109K couldn't turn with an Emil either?"

The best turning Bf-109 was the Bf-109F as far as I'm aware.

"I know though that the airframe was upgraded from the G-10 onwards, so maybe it could?"

The Gustav and after were sluggish in the handling. I don't know if they could turn better or not.

"I wonder how the cropped Spit performed?"

It rolled quicker, so could initiate the turn earlier. But it's turning performance was no better in the actual turn.

"There weren't many Spit fuselage upgrades though were they, I mean to improve maneuverability?"

Not really.

"I would never have thought that a 109 could actually out-turn a Spit!! - That re-writes the history books, doesn't it!

What a shock for a Spit pilot that must have been"

No, it doesn't rewrite history. The Spitfire is known to out-turn the Bf-109 because the Spitfire often did. The Bf-109E had the slats to make it turn inside a Spitfire, but they often malfunctioned and jammed. The German pilots were also scared of the loud bang the slats deploying caused. Only the experten knew how to use the handling of the Bf-109 to it's full. Even with training on the noise, it often caused a lot of German pilots to fill their pants when the slats deployed. So the Spitfires often turned inside.

[schwarzpanzer]

Jabberwocky,

This may sound ignorant Jabberwocky, but I never even thought of turn-speed. That's a revelation to me, thank you.


PlanD,

The Freidrich was the best handling (probably) I know that.

The Gustav's (pre-G10) were sluggish, but the thing was it was the heavy DB605 in an unupgraded airframe mainly. Also the armament was a lot hevier - from 1X MG151 15/20 & 2X 7.92's (MG17?) of the Freidrich to sometimes 1 MG151/20, 2X MG131 13mm's & 2X 30mm of some G6's!

So, at that time, the Me really piled on the pounds!

The G10 sorted a lot of problems though, as did the Kurfurst (though a lot were still overloaded).

How well the vertical rudder etc of the G10 helped performance I'm not sure, I know they made high-alt performance a lot better and I've heard they did the same for low altitudes.

Thanks for the cropped Spit turn info.

The Bf-109E had the slats to make it turn inside a Spitfire

That coming from you as well is a shock. Being in England, all I usually hear is "The Spitfire could out-turn the Messerschmitt, everyone knows it yadayadayada...". I'm glad that you don't have your head in the sand.

Out-turn the Spit! - I still can't get over it! I knew parity was about right, but I seemed to be the only one!!

For e.g. my grandad even got a shock when he learned that the Germans had jets and I told him in the 90's! I mentioned this before.

This is how propaganda can seriously hurt knowledge.

Anway, I'm rambling, back to buisness:

I know the slats opened asymetrically, so accuracy was thrown right off in a tight turn-fight. Accuracy was also usually one of the 'scmitts advantages, as you probably already know. That accuracy came at the price of user-friendliness...

Handling and ease of use can be as important as maneuverability.

I suppose turn performance figures could be for either yaw, or a half-roll turn? - Confusing me further!

Thanks to all for the info, it's a pleasure to learn from you.