Spitfire Mk.XIV vs P-51D Mustang

[the lancaster kicks ass]

if the pilot's quality was the same it's always gonna be the spit........

[DAVIDICUS]

What I don't understand is why the insistence by the British on maintaining a significant armament of .303 machine guns even in the waning months of the war.

The .303 (British) 30/06 (U.S.) and 7.92mm (German) guns were poor air to air and air to ground weapons.

Round for round, the .50 BMG has well over four times the energy of the .303. The .303 British has less than 2,500 foot pounds of energy at the muzzel while the .50 BMG develops more than 12,000.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

we ditched the .303 in the spit long long before the end of the war.......

[DAVIDICUS]

Lanc,

The Spitfire Mk. XIV (subject of this thread) was armed with four .303's.

I think what you meant to say was that the British ditched dental hygeine long before the end of the war.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

Lanc,

The Spitfire Mk. XIV (subject of this thread) was armed with four .303's.

I think what you meant to say was that the British ditched dental hygeine long before the end of the war.

Yes but since the IX and beyond, two .50's would be installed instead of the four .303's. I think this was what Lanc was refering to.

[DAVIDICUS]

Were they field modifications?

All the stats I have seen on the Mk. XIV show four .303's and two 20mm's. There are other later war aircraft that still used .303's too. Why?

The Spit IXe and the Spit XIVe both were armed with 2 x 20mm Hispano II's + 2 x .50 M2 Brownings. I don't think any of the Spit XIV's were armed with .303's, but maybe there was an early version that was so armed. Some of the early test planes had that armament.

=S=

Lunatic

As for the Spitfire roll rate and the clipped wings, tests with the Spit IX (I believe it was the IX) showed that some production units rolled very well with full wings, and clipping the wings on these planes did not appreciably increase the rate of roll. Other production units rolled poorly with the full wings, and on these, clipping the wings did improve the roll rate substantially.

=====================

From about 355 mph IAS on up, the P-51 rolled better than the Spitfire, below that, the Spit rolled better than the P-51. The P-51 was easier to roll at moderate speeds and above, as it took less aileron deflection to achieve the same roll. The P-51 roll rate curve is also very flat, where the Sptifire curve is decending sharply from its peak at about 200 mph, making it more difficult for the Spitfire pilot to execute precise rolling manuvers if speeds are changing drastically through a fight.

Again, what I have to wonder is who wins the expected engagement. The P-51 and Spitfire are cruising at 30,000 feet. The P-51 is making 400 mph, and has pleanty of fuel to do so. The Spitfire is making 300 mph, and is pushing his fuel supply to do so. Can the Spitfire make up a 100 mph speed deficit?

=S=

Lunatic

[the lancaster kicks ass]

where did you get that the P-51 would be doin 400 and the spit be doing 300?? we're talking about a dogfight so the spit would be at full-ish power, and be doni more than 300mph...........

[Soren]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

The Spit IXe and the Spit XIVe both were armed with 2 x 20mm Hispano II's + 2 x .50 M2 Brownings. I don't think any of the Spit XIV's were armed with .303's, but maybe there was an early version that was so armed. Some of the early test planes had that armament.

=S=

Lunatic

RG,

the IX and XIV were both either armed with (apart from the 2xHispano's) 4x.303's or 2x.50's, both configurations were used. The 2xHispano's + 2x.50's first became the 'standard' armament with the Mk. XVIII.

Originally Posted by Soren

RG,

the IX and XIV were both either armed with (apart from the 2xHispano's) 4x.303's or 2x.50's, both configurations were used. The 2xHispano's + 2x.50's first became the 'standard' armament with the Mk. XVIII.

Notice the "e".

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

where did you get that the P-51 would be doin 400 and the spit be doing 300?? we're talking about a dogfight so the spit would be at full-ish power, and be doni more than 300mph...........

But that is not how a dogfight starts. The pilots of each side do not radio to each other asking "are you ready?". Both planes would be cruising at altitude. The Spitfire cruise is around 280 mph, the P-51 cruise is 400 mph. So when they first spot one another, the P-51 would typically have a 100+ mph advantage.

If the Spitfire were to cruise at 400 mph, it would be out of fuel when the engagement began. So in order to be at an equal energy state the Spitfire MUST spot the P-51 first, otherwise, when the fight ensue's, it would have to make up the difference in cruise speeds.

=S=

Lunatic

[the lancaster kicks ass]

firstly the P-51 doesn't cruise at 400mph, it's closer too 350mph, and i believe the spit could accelerate faster than the 'stang anyway........

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

firstly the P-51 doesn't cruise at 400mph, it's closer too 350mph, and i believe the spit could accelerate faster than the 'stang anyway........

Look at the chart for yourself:



Collumn IV shows a 390 mph cruise at 30,000 feet with a fuel consumption of 76 gph. Collumn I shows a 425 mph cruise at 30,000 feet with a fuel consumption of 97 gph. A 400 mph cruise was certianly possible, though in fact I rounded the numbers a little bit for simplicity. The actual comparison should probably be the P-51 at 390 mph and the Spit-14 at 280 mph.

Yes the Spit-14 could accelerate faster than the P-51, but it would still take it a good minute to wind up another 100 mph at 30,000 feet. That's forever in a dogfight.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to knock the Spit-14. I'm just trying to point out that the P-51 had advantages that are not visible by comparing maximum speeds or climb rates or other stats.

=S=

Lunatic

[Soren]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Notice the "e".

Notice what you said:

I don't think any of the Spit XIV's were armed with .303's, but maybe there was an early version that was so armed

The Spit IX and XIV had either four .303's or two .50's along with the two Hispano's. Either configuration was available, until the XVIII.

This applies both for the 'e' wing and 'c' wing types.

Here's an IX.e (Notice the four .303's ):