Spitfire Mk.XIV vs P-51D Mustang

[the lancaster kicks ass]

kepp the poop coming guys, i'm rather enjoying this conversation...........

[Soren]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Yes - not very much at 400 mph.

5G is 5G, theres no difference if its at 300 or 400 mph, only the turn radius has changed slightly.

At 200 mph the amount of turn required to achieve 5 G's is substantial. The plane's ability to turn is usually the limiting fact on actual turn radius.

By 400 mph the amount of turn required to achieve 5 G's is relatively slight. The pilot's G-tolerance is usually the limiting factor on actual turn radius.

=S=

Lunatic

[birdyadg]

the spitfire in my mind is a beautiful a/c and so is the p 51 mustang.

"So wich one would you bet your money on in a clash between the two"

if you are british the spit ,hurricane, avro lank are part of our folklore ,these are the a/c that saved us from the evil nazi swarm that tryed in vain to destroy our
infrastructure and moral, and leave us open to invasion.

leaving that aside, any machine is only has good as the person in control ,no matter what cannons ,303's .50 it sports or how fast it turns, if he hasn,t had chance to hone is skills, and the opponent has ,then my moneys on the opponent.
if on the other hand both pilots were experianced, the spit would have the advantage but the outcome would still depend on other factors.

they main difference between the two planes was range. which made the p51 a very useful a/c in its own right.

[KrazyKraut]

The thread... IT IS ALIVE


P-51 D because it was available and more reliable, safer and with excellent range and overall the best fighter of the war.

[Soren]

The Spitfire Mk.XIV if its for country defense, and the P-51 if it's for escort duties.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by Soren

The Spitfire Mk.XIV if its for country defense, and the P-51 if it's for escort duties.

This accurately describes the advantages of each.

Whenever a "Dora" was in the proximity, the escorting P-51's should be very careful not to attract attention ! If seen the P-51 could forget all about dogfighting the "Dora", as the "Dora" was superior in every aspect of flight except diving !

I doubt that P-51s were careful to avoid attention of any aircraft when escorting bombers.

At escort altitudes, 20k up, the P-51D performance ranged from roughly equivalent to the Fw-190D-9 at 20k to clearly superior above. Aside note, the P-51B performance was equivalent to the Dora from SL to 15k, where it pulled away in speed. Above 20k it was no contest, the P-51B had a great advantage in speed, an improving advantage in climb, and of course, an advantage in dive. The Dora had better avoid the P-51B above 20k.

The Spitfire XIV was generally superior to the P-51D in airspeed and climb throughout the envelope. The ace up the sleeve for the P-51D was, of course, range. A note here, the P-51B, Spitfire XIV, and the Dora were quite similar in performance up to 15k where the Dora was starting to run out of air. At about 25k, the P-51B was starting to lag behind the Spit, which continued good performance above 35k.

[Soren]

The average P-51B wasn't much faster above 20kft Davparlr, and maneuverability still wasn't as good as that of the Dora. The fw-190Dora-9 held clear advantages in speed, climb rate & maneuverability up to 25 kft, after which the P-51B was slightly faster and started climbing faster as-well. However caliming it was no contest is wrong, as proven during actual dogfights at bomber alts where the Dora's were causing the escorts some real trouble.

Sadly for the Germans there were never enough Dora-9's to go around and they were always grossly outnumbered by the Allied escorts.

The real champ at all alts was the Dora-13 which was superior to any Allied fighter in service from SL and up.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

The average P-51B wasn't much faster above 20kft Davparlr, and maneuverability still wasn't as good as that of the Dora. The fw-190Dora-9 held clear advantages in speed, climb rate & maneuverability up to 25 kft, after which the P-51B was slightly faster and started climbing faster as-well. However caliming it was no contest is wrong, as proven during actual dogfights at bomber alts where the Dora's were causing the escorts some real trouble.

Sadly for the Germans there were never enough Dora-9's to go around and they were always grossly outnumbered by the Allied escorts.

The real champ at all alts was the Dora-13 which was superior to any Allied fighter in service from SL and up.

The Dora never had enough numbers to do any damage, and yes they were an equal to the 51. Having said that, 8th AF pilots chased them and shot them down with the same entusiasm as the Anton.

This was all about relatively equivalent aircraft and inferior pilots, The 355th, which only number five in air to air awards for 8th AF, lost one shot down and one hitting the ground chasing a Dora for 9 awarded. This was actually a lower air ratio than against the 262.

[Soren]

Pilot skill, numbers etc etc all contribute to those figures.

[KrazyKraut]

While I love the D-13 for its looks and performance, it never played any role at all.

[Soren]

It's hard to play any role when less than ten were available

[eddie_brunette]

Spitfire for me

edd

[KrazyKraut]

Originally Posted by drgondog

The Dora never had enough numbers to do any damage, and yes they were an equal to the 51. Having said that, 8th AF pilots chased them and shot them down with the same entusiasm as the Anton.

This was all about relatively equivalent aircraft and inferior pilots, The 355th, which only number five in air to air awards for 8th AF, lost one shot down and one hitting the ground chasing a Dora for 9 awarded. This was actually a lower air ratio than against the 262.

But are they cross-checked with German losses?

I'm sure by the time the Dora arrived in any relevant numbers it simply was too late to get the recognition it might have gained if available in late '43 or early '44. It's funny though how it is seen as the ultimate German piston fighter in modern public opinion. In the end it only equalized the advantage the Allies had gained with the P-51. Back in its best days the Anton did far better than the Dora. Because it gave a performance advantage and didn't just equalize one.

Regarding the Spitfire vs. the P-51: I think you guys go by performance figures way too much. First of all the P-51 D was available in much greater numbers than the Mk XIV. It was cheaper, more reliable and safer. Development potential also was higher (imo), especially when taking into consideration that the P-51 achieved a top speed of what 40-50 (?) km/h higher than the Spitfire with the same engine. The P-51's airframe was simply better. Finally, from a strategical point of view the P-51 could do anything the Mk XIV could and more.

[Juha]

KrazyKraut
as Suren put it
"The Spitfire Mk.XIV if its for country defense, and the P-51 if it's for escort duties."

Spit XIV climbed clearly better, P-51D had much better range. I don't have price for Spit XIV (price comprasions are always a bit problematic when incl exchange rate but as USAAF late war fighter P-51D was clearly cheaper than P-47D or late P-38s), reliability or safety info, can you give some figures?

TIA
Juha