Is Spitfire really the BEST British fighter???

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by Nonskimmer

Seriously though man, try not to let it get under your skin too much. You'll never change his mind anyway.

Yeah, you're right. I'll never change his mind. I should try to calm down...

[DJ_Dalton]

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

Not the series 5 fighters. They were more than a match.

Cheddar, you are correct. I neglected this plane. It was the best of motors in a very aerodynamic design. I don't know how many they made but it was exceptional.

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contri...erone/3961.htm

What cracks me up is that the biggest flaw of the Spitfire - its range, was at least a serious a flaw of the 190 and more serious a flaw of the 109. How can you point at the Spitfire's lack of forward action in the later part of the war as indicating it was a flawed plane and not apply the same reasoning to its German counterparts?

I wonder when he will reply to my reply?

=S=

Lunatic

[DJ_Dalton]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

What cracks me up is that the biggest flaw of the Spitfire - its range, was at least a serious a flaw of the 190 and more serious a flaw of the 109. How can you point at the Spitfire's lack of forward action in the later part of the war as indicating it was a flawed plane and not apply the same reasoning to its German counterparts?

Range isn't the reason the Spitfire was withdrawn. It was fighting over France and escorting British bombers until they went night action and America stepped in with large scale daylight bombing and long range fighter escort. Whenever the Spitfires flew over France they attrited in significant numbers and thats including D-Day and thereafter when it was all over but the crying for the Germans.

You people are far too influenced by those that write history. You need to give it a close and careful look to determine the detail of it.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lemkes.html

Originally Posted by DJ_Dalton

Range isn't the reason the Spitfire was withdrawn. It was fighting over France and escorting British bombers until they went night action and America stepped in with large scale daylight bombing and long range fighter escort. Whenever the Spitfires flew over France they attrited in significant numbers and thats including D-Day and thereafter when it was all over but the crying for the Germans.

You people are far too influenced by those that write history. You need to give it a close and careful look to determine the detail of it.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lemkes.html

That's just pure crap Dalton, the Spitfire was a relatively poor ground attack plane and suffered badly when it tried that mission.

And pointing to Lemkes success is again based really not upon his ability so much as that of his flight wing. Imagine how much easier it was to rack up the kills when you flew with a dozen or more other fighter pilots all trying to get you into the kill position. To be significant, you need to quote his unit's kills and losses, not just one pilot who they were trying to get the Knights Cross and other medals for.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/vie...?p=59593#59593 <== still awaiting response.

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Lunatic

[DJ_Dalton]

That's just pure crap Dalton, the Spitfire was a relatively poor ground attack plane and suffered badly when it tried that mission.

Yes it was poor. It did not take damage very well. Handled horribly damaged and had an inline motor that could fail with minimal damage.

And pointing to Lemkes success is again based really not upon his ability so much as that of his flight wing. Imagine how much easier it was to rack up the kills when you flew with a dozen or more other fighter pilots all trying to get you into the kill position. To be significant, you need to quote his unit's kills and losses

I looked at squadron kills once for the Luftwaffe and they were huge, but it got bad at the end of the war against Jugs and Stangs. Most of their 109's went down due to landing and takeoff accidents, not battle losses. I'd have to pull the links again. But what you're argueing is not consistent with reality by 1944. The Germans were always outnumbered and they used the Schwarm technique the same way the Allies used the finger four. I'm sure you're well aware of the Nowotney Schwarm and JG54's huge across the board successes. As pertains to Lemke specifically he didn't take command until 6.23.44 and by then he'd already downed his last Spitfire. (There is a discrepancy in the kills in this link) It doesnt' mean he didn't lead a Schwarm. It doesn't mean he did either. My guess is he was number 1. He obviously had a good eye.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lemkes.html

The plane that won the war was the Jug. Theres little doubt about it. The P-51 was probably a more dangerous dogfight adversary, but what the Jug did it did very well and it did it all. P-51's couldnt do the ground work either. They fell out of the sky in that role. Leading Mustang ace of the war was killed in that endeavor. They say his own AA got him. I seriously doubt that, but thats another story.

Spit IX was a pig under the high engine load, especially when up motored. Focke Wulf were far too much plane for it. 109's too role specific for it. I have no idea where you're coming from.

Most Spitfire pilots consdiered the IX to be the best dogfighter of all the Spitfires. I have no idea where you're comming from Dalton.

=S=

Lunatic

[DJ_Dalton]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Most Spitfire pilots consdiered the IX to be the best dogfighter of all the Spitfires. I have no idea where you're comming from Dalton.

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Lunatic

Yeah, I'd say so too. But, it needed the speed and climb rate to get out of the "duck on a pond" mode with the FW190. But what it got changed it from a nimble plane to a plane that better show up in large numbers because there weren't gonna be many tail shot hose downs. If became more like a 109, but without equal zoom and dive characteristics. It got very fast in the end. It had too.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/glunz.html

Dive characteristics? The 109 was the plane lagging in dive characterisics, not the Spitfire. Early on the 109 had the edge but by the Bf109G vs. the Spit IX this had changed!

The maximum dive speed of the Bf109G was about 465 mph, the Spitfire IX was able to mange speeds in excess of 525 mph and still recover.

=S=

Lunatic

[DJ_Dalton]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Dive characteristics? The 109 was the plane lagging in dive characterisics, not the Spitfire. Early on the 109 had the edge but by the Bf109G vs. the Spit IX this had changed!

hmmmm, Not Exactly.......first off let me refer you to your erstwhile Spitfire fanatic "Krazy Kanuckistani". From his voluminous library he produced the following regarding maximum dive speeds for the IX and the 109G:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/vie...?p=59426#59426

Please note the Luftwaffe warning was not to exceed 750 kph. Similar to boost that was an item at the option of the pilot in emergency situations. While a reading of the Spit IX's dive ability is that the indicated speeds are simply the maximum possible. (Caveat, they are IAS and probably further from true air speed at altitude.) If you bother reading this whole link you'll notice the German ministry said the speeds were "widely exceeded" by German pilots:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/vie...?p=59536#59536

Now, one other little item. The seminal testing of the Bf-109G-6/R6 bomber interceptor configuration. (Gondolas):

"Dive: During the initial part of the dive, the 109 draws away slightly, but when a speed of 380 mph [611 km/hr] is reached the Spitfire XIV begins to gain on the 109. ":

http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire14v109.htm

Please note that is the best engined Spitfire (albeit horribly unmaneuverable) that Supermarine ever produced. The test was against a gondola winged G6 run at less than maximum boost and the best the finest British energy plane ever produced could do is lose ground at first and then "begin to gain"....whatever that means.

The maximum dive speed of the Bf109G was about 465 mph, the Spitfire IX was able to mange speeds in excess of 525 mph and still recover.

The dive speed you refer to is approximately 850 kph. I assure you the German craft actually dived at that speed. I've read no substance indicating the late war British did.

Lastly, you need to read about the standard evasion techniques the Luftwaffe employed when bounced by superior numbers of Spitfires. I have no idea what makes you think the Spitfires ever ran down German planes in dives.

Keep in mind the following data is from a 1942 FW190A run at minimal boost, once again against the best "performing" fighter the United Kingdom ever produced:

"Conclusions: In defence, the Spitfire XIV should us its remarkable maximum climb and turning circle against enemy aircraft. In the attack it can affort to 'mix it' but should beware of the quick roll and dive.
If this manoeuvre is used by a FW190 and the Spitfire XIV follows, it will probably not be able to close
the range until the FW190 has pulled out of its dive.":

http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire14v190.htm


If I were you I'd wave the white flag, offer my most sincere apologies, acknowledge my master and pledge an oath of fealty and obediance.

I'm not going to exceed Erich Hartmanns confirmed kill totals on this board. It would be inappropriate. Granted the planes I get to fly are not on a par with how his produced but I still possess a mere fraction of his ability.

If anyone has any meat. They better bring it out now.

Below are four flyers from JG2 every single one of them exceeded the highest scoring Allie Ace. They may have been a Schwarm. I don't know.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/oesau.html

[Maestro]

If I was you, Dalton, I would not "take all infos on the internet for cash". I read several of the following books. And trust me, you should do the same.

Originally Posted by Maestro

My comparisons don't come from a web site, but from an old book (in French). That book took sources from several other books. Here are all of them :

Spitfire At War Vol 1 & 2...........................................Alfred Price - Ian Allan
Le Grand Cirque (The Great Show)............................Pierre H. Clostermann - Corgi
Aircraft In Profile........................................... ..........Profile Publications
Spitfire Story............................................. .............Alfred Price - Arms & Armour
I Flew For The Führer............................................ ...Heinz Knocke - Evans
Luftwaffe Night Units 1939-45...................................Osprey - Jerry Scutts
Wings Of The Weird And Wonderful Vol. 2.................Airlife - Capt. Eric Brown
High Flyers............................................ .................Micheal Fopp - Greenhill Books
WW2 Fighter Conflict.......................................... .....Alfred Price - PBS
United States Army in World War II :
The European Theater of Operations,
Cross Channel Attack............................................ ..Gordon A. Harrison,Bureau du Chef de l'Histoire Militaire,Army Department,Washington D.C., 1951
Typhoon/Tempest In Action.....................................Jerry Scutts - Squadron Signal

That's all of them.

Personnally, I prefer to trust books written by really interrested writers (Pierre H. Clostermann was the leading French Ace of WW II (32 victories) and flew Spitfires, Typhoons and Tempests in the RAF.) than trust anybody who build up a web site and claim to know what he is talking about. Think about it...

[DJ_Dalton]

Personnally, I prefer to trust books written by really interrested writers (Pierre H. Clostermann was the leading French Ace of WW II (32 victories) and flew Spitfires, Typhoons and Tempests in the RAF.) than trust anybody who build up a web site and claim to know what he is talking about. Think about it...

Maestro I have no idea what you're talking about.

I've read accounts from the Experten and others. The Blonde Knight, Rall's Book and several others.

The IX is widely recognized as the best Spit dogfighter. It still retained a little bit of its former dexterity with the up engined Merlins. It rolled like a pig and choked for nourishment in the paces the Jerrys put it through, but you have to understand the reality of carburation and when the rolls and inverted moves affected separation.

Heres a little link for the up motored IX tested against the Bf 109G6/U2 (This is the same as an R/6. Its the Gondola version. Pay particular attention to the Dive/Climb because its in these formulas that the 109's dominated the Spitfires. They just couldn't compete. EVER:

"Dive
19.........Comparitive dives between the two aircraft have shown that the Me.109 can leave the Spitfire without any difficulty.

Climb
18.........The climb of the Spitfire is superior to that of the Me.109 at all heights. It has a particularly marked advantage below 13,000 feet using 18 lbs.boost, and this is naturally more pronounced when using 25 lbs. boost. When both aircraft are pulled up into a climb from a dive, the performance is almost identical, but when climbing speed is reached the Spitfire slowly pulls away. "

Note: they are using 25lb Boost against a Gondola laden 109..lol

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/109gtac.html

Its not just you guys though. The 109 was bad mouthed by creative historians and its why its fallen into disregard despite the fact that theres scores of aces that literally and individually shot down hundreds of planes in it. Really, you'd have to be a complete zealot to not acknowledge there was a problem between what is said now and what happened then.

Its the greatest revisionist history in the annals of those that write historical accounts.

This guy got a Spitfire and two tanks in one pass...lol They say he was shot down 17 times. I'll bet a Spitfire never got him. If you look at his itemized record, I'll bet the bombers took him out most times.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/eder.html

[Maestro]

I suggest you to take a reading course...

It is written "When using a 18 lbs boost" and "When 25 lbs boost is employed". So it was not always used.

And read the repport completely. Particualry the three last points...

"Turning circle
20.........The manoeuvrability of the Spitfire IX in this respect is greatly superior to that of the Me.109 and it easily out-turns the Me.109 in either direction at all speeds.

Rate of Roll
21.........Here again the Spitfire has a marked advantage at all speeds.

Conclusion
22.........The Me.109G has an inferior performance to the Spitfire in all respects with the exception of acceleration in a dive and the slight advantage in speed which it possesses at heights between 16,000 and 20,000 feet."

And then you say it rolled like a pig ? WAKE-UP !

[DJ_Dalton]

Originally Posted by Maestro

I suggest you to take a reading course...

It is written "When using a 18 lbs boost" and "When 25 lbs boost is employed". So it was not always used.

And read the repport completely. Particualry the three last points...

"Turning circle
20.........The manoeuvrability of the Spitfire IX in this respect is greatly superior to that of the Me.109 and it easily out-turns the Me.109 in either direction at all speeds.

Rate of Roll
21.........Here again the Spitfire has a marked advantage at all speeds.

Conclusion
22.........The Me.109G has an inferior performance to the Spitfire in all respects with the exception of acceleration in a dive and the slight advantage in speed which it possesses at heights between 16,000 and 20,000 feet."

And then you say it rolled like a pig ? WAKE-UP !

M...

If you want to pay this test any mind, ask them to go back and fly the Spitfire with a drop tank and then we can talk. This 109 WITH GONDOLAS was easily faster in a dive (despite Lunatics claim the IX could outdive the 109) It was faster in level flight at certain altitudes and it zoomed as well.

Roll Rate was impacted by the gondolas. Turning Circle wasn't the planes stongest point and certainly not with gondolas.

Yes!!! If you challenged me to a duel and said you can have a clean Spit IX or a Gondola G6/U2, I'd take the Spit IX and probably kill my adversary. Give me the same two planes and a clean 109 and I'd take the 109 and I know I'd kill him.

[Maestro]

There is no mention of gondolas, drop tanks, bombs or whatever in this repport. For both the Spit and 109.

The repports I posted were almost the same results and were made with clean planes.

But I know you will remain saying that the 109 was better and blah, blah, blah, blah... But it's clear that you can't admit the truth. Even when everybody is against you.

Beleive it or not, the Spitfire could match up ANY plane the Luftwaffe had.