Is Spitfire really the BEST British fighter???

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

Maestro, he never met an Experten.

Who knows ?

[KraziKanuK]

No one noticed the 'wink'? ie joke.

[Nonskimmer]

It's alright. I got it.

[KraziKanuK]

Originally Posted by Nonskimmer

It's alright. I got it.

Should I have said 'one of Dalton's experten'?

[Soren]

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

Should I have said 'one of Dalton's experten'?

Come on people, lets not be so harsh on each other.

The Bf-109 was a great fighter, wich is very underrated in todays society of Plane-reseachers. However that doesnt mean the Spitfire wasnt a great plane (wich it defidently was), just that it hasnt been underrated.

I can to some extend understand Dalton and Udet, as it can be very frustrating to see the Spitfire being worshipped as much as it is, and that the Bf-109 is always regarded as inferior(Wich it most certainly wasnt).

In my opinion the two aircraft are very similar in Fighter vs Fighter capability.

Take BoB for example, there the 109's gave very good considdering their fuel limitations. A very large portion of the 109's shot down in BoB, were shot down on thier way home !.

[cheddar cheese]

I think the late war Spits were far better than the late war 109's, as they lost a lot of their manoeverability. Early war though they were very even.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

well try to remember this, byt the BoB the -109 had had years of refinement and development, the spit was still on her first mark, if you sent a spit Mk.I and a -109A against each toher who would win??

[cheddar cheese]

I think the Bf-109B was the first combat version.

Type: Single-seat fighter
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke
Service Delivery: February 1937

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine:
Bf 109B-0:
Model: Junkers Jumo 210B
Type: Liquid-cooled, inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 610 hp

Bf 109B-1:
Model: Junkers Jumo 210D
Type: Liquid-cooled, inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 635 hp

Bf 109B-2:
Model: Junkers Jumo 210E
Type: Liquid-cooled, inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 640 hp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span: 9.97m
Length: 8.51m
Height: 2.59m
Wing Surface Area: N/A
Weights:
Empty: 1580kg (3,483 lbs.)
Maximum, Loaded: 2120kg (4,850 lbs.)

Performance:
Maximum Speed: 292mph (470kph)
Range: N/A
Initial climb: 2,200 ft/min (670.5m/min)
Service Ceiling: 26,575 ft. (8100m)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armament:
Two 7.92mm MG 17 machine guns above engine.
One 7.92mm MG 17 machine guns firing through hub.

Avionics: N/A



A lot of it would be down to pilot skill, but I think the Mk1 spit would have clinched it. But remember the Spitfire was a far newer design. If you look at the British fighters of the RAF at the same period of the Bf-109B, you will probably find the 109 was far superior. It is unfair to compare the Mk.I with the 109B, as they are from different eras.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

so we're talking 1935 yeah?? compare it to the hurricane, the hurricane would walk all over the -109 with stats like that........

[cheddar cheese]

Wasnt the Hurricane also a far later design than the 109 though? Im fairly sure that 109 designing and development would have started back in 1933 (not sure on that though)

[Soren]

I think the late war Spits were far better than the late war 109's, as they lost a lot of their manoeverability.

And accordingly did the Spitfire loose its maneuverability !
They were fairly even in late-war versions aswell.

Early war though they were very even.

Well in BoB, yeah, there they were fairly even. However the Bf109-F4 and G2, would out-dogfight any Spitfire it might meet in 41 to 43.

The Latest Spitfire of the war(Mk.XIV), was perhaps better than the latest Bf-109 (K-4), but only there did it actually become superior to the Bf-109.

Ask the Spitfire designers/Manufactures how they always felt that the Bf-109 was a step ahead of them in design in early-midwar years.

I disagree. The Spit V was a match for the 109-F, the Spit IX was generally superior to the 109G-2. It certainly out turned them.

The top speeds of the Spitfires and 109's tend to stay fairly close - but the 109 had little improvement to its cooling system to cope with the higher power engines. It also had no solution for high speed boundary layer seperation problems. 109G's were known to be able to maintain top speeds in combat for only about 1-2 minutes before overheating, where the Spitfires were able to sustain such speeds for over 5 minutes. The Spitfire also had better firepower and was more rugged.

Seriously, the 109 was, at best, about equal to the Spitfires it faced. If you want to argue for a superior German fighter, the FW190 is your plane.

=S=

Lunatic

[Soren]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

I disagree. The Spit V was a match for the 109-F, the Spit IX was generally superior to the 109G-2. It certainly out turned them.

Well lets see...

Bf-109F4 vs Spitfire Mk.V (Empty for max agility):

Bf-109F4 weight: 1970 kg / Wing Area: 17.4 sq.m / Max power: 1350 hp

Spitfire Mk.V weight: 2297 kg / Wing Area: 21.46 sq.m / Max power: 1515 hp

Bf-109F4

Power-to-weight ratio (Hp pr Kg): 0.69 hp

Power-to-wing Area ratio (Hp pr Sq.m): 77.58 hp

Wingloading (Kg pr Sq.m): 113.2 kg

Special features: Leading edge Wing-slats.

Spitfire Mk.V

Power-to-weight ratio (Hp pr Kg): 0.66 hp

Power-to-Wing Area ratio (Hp pr Sq.m): 70.6 hp

Wingloading (Kg pr Sq.m): 107 kg

Special features: None.
----------------------------------------------------

The numbers speak for themselves.

Fact is the Spitfire wasnt superior, but infact a little tiny bit inferior.

[Nonskimmer]

Well then it must've been the Canadian pilots.

Kidding! Shutting up now.

[Soren]

As to speed:

Bf-109F4 max speed sea-level: 475 km/h

Spitfire Mk.V max speed sea-level: 447 km/h

Bf-109F4 Max speed at 5,800m: 637 km/h

Spitfire Mk.V max speed at 7,100m: 600 km/h

So for 1-2 minutes the 109 was faster, and after that, just as fast.

This also serves to show that the Bf-109 was better at low-level fighting.