Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums

Is Spitfire really the BEST British fighter???

Aviation Discuss Is Spitfire really the BEST British fighter??? in the World War II - Aviation forums; Originally Posted by Soren Recent actual measurements have said 10.6m for the F-4 and 9.94m for the ...


Go Back   Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums > World War II - Aviation > Aviation

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-02-2005, 09:58 AM   #301
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren
Recent actual measurements have said 10.6m for the F-4 and 9.94m for the K-4. But all my bookreferences say 9.92m for both.

However there is a German specification book out there, wich says the K-4 had shortened wingspan from all the other models, wich is why i believe the newest measurements.
I have factory drawing, all in German, of the wing that says 9.92m as well as many other dimensions related to the wing. The title block says Me109F - Me109K.
KraziKanuK is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2005, 11:15 AM   #302
Senior Member
 
Soren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by KraziKanuK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren
Recent actual measurements have said 10.6m for the F-4 and 9.94m for the K-4. But all my bookreferences say 9.92m for both.

However there is a German specification book out there, wich says the K-4 had shortened wingspan from all the other models, wich is why i believe the newest measurements.
I have factory drawing, all in German, of the wing that says 9.92m as well as many other dimensions related to the wing. The title block says Me109F - Me109K.
That settles it then. Whats the document called btw ? What other wing- specifications are there ?
__________________

We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland
Soren is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2005, 12:41 PM   #303
Der Crewchief
 
DerAdlerIstGelandet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country:
All of m sources say they were all 9.92m from the F to the K.

Here is what I have in all of my sources but this whole argument here should really be in another thread.

Bf-109B
Dimensions:
Wing span: 9.97m
Length: 8.51m
Height: 2.59m
Wing Surface Area: N/A

Weights:
Empty: 1580kg (3,483 lbs.)
Maximum, Loaded: 2120kg (4,850 lbs.)

Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft. 4½ (9.97m)
Length: 28 ft. 0.66 in. (8.51m)
Height: 8 ft. 0½ in. (2.59m)
Wing Surface Area: 174 sq. ft.

Weights:
Empty: 3522 lb.
Maximum, Loaded: 5062 lb.

Bf-109E

Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft. 4.5 in. (9.97m)
Length: 28 ft. 8 in. (8.9m)
Height: 8 ft. 10 in. (2.6m)
Wing Surface Area: N/A

Weights:
Empty: 2018kg (4,440 lb.)
Maximum, Loaded: 2509kg (5,520 lb.)

Bf-109F

Wing Span: 9.92m
Lenght: 8.90m
Height: 2.60m
Wing Surface Area: 16.10 sq m.

Wieghts:
Empty: 2590kg (5698 lb)
Loaded: 3117kg (6857lb)

Me-109G

Wingspan: 9.92m
Length: 9.02m
Height: 3.40m
Wing Surface Area: 16.05 sq m.

Weights:
Empty: 2258kg (4,968 lbs.)
Loaded: 3106kg (6,834 lbs.)
Maximum Overloaded: 3207kg (7,055 lbs)

Me-109K

Wingspan: 9.92m
Lenght: 9.02m
Height: 3.40m
Wing Surface Area: 16.05 sq. m

Weights:
Empty: 2700kg (5940lb)
Loaded: 3386kg (7438lb)
__________________

US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006

Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
DerAdlerIstGelandet is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2005, 01:20 PM   #304
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren
That settles it then. Whats the document called btw ? What other wing- specifications are there ?
It is titled Flugel (the u should have .. above it)

Not specs but dimensions related to slats, flaps, ailerons, chords, etc.
KraziKanuK is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2005, 03:01 PM   #305
Senior Member
 
Soren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by KraziKanuK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren
That settles it then. Whats the document called btw ? What other wing- specifications are there ?
It is titled Flugel (the u should have .. above it)

Not specs but dimensions related to slats, flaps, ailerons, chords, etc.
Ok, thanks.

How about Wing area ?

By looking Adler's sources above, something is obviously wrong with the Wing-span and Wing-Area spec's. (The E series didn't have a larger wing-surface-area than the F series and beyond)

All the sources I have state the B-E seris had a wing-span of 9.87m, and the F-K series a wing-span of 9.92m. The B-E series had a Wing-Area of 16.17 sq.m, the F-K series N/A.

Do you have any Wing-Area spec's on the F series and beyond Krazi ?
__________________

We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland
Soren is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2005, 04:32 PM   #306
Der Crewchief
 
DerAdlerIstGelandet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country:
Well that is what all of my sources say about the wing area. All I know is that after the F the 109 got faster and performance wise was better but it got more sluggish and anyone who has flown the magnificant 109 will tell you that it at high speeds the controls would stiffen up a bit. At high alltitudes though she would give anything a run for there money.
__________________

US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006

Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
DerAdlerIstGelandet is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2005, 05:40 PM   #307
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 795
It says the area is 16.05m2.

One thing to watch for is if the area is calculated using what is under the fuselage or not. ie span x mean chord. Some areas are given from the root chord out, naturally x2.
KraziKanuK is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2005, 05:52 PM   #308
Senior Member
 
Soren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,024
Quote:
It says the area is 16.05m2.
Strange, why would the larger wings of he F-K series have a smaller wing-area than the B-E series smaller wings ?

Quote:
One thing to watch for is if the area is calculated using what is under the fuselage or not. ie span x mean chord. Some areas are given from the root chord out, naturally x2.
Yes, that is offcourse also a possibility.
__________________

We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland
Soren is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2005, 06:12 PM   #309
Der Crewchief
 
DerAdlerIstGelandet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren
Quote:
It says the area is 16.05m2.
Strange, why would the larger wings of he F-K series have a smaller wing-area than the B-E series smaller wings ?

Quote:
One thing to watch for is if the area is calculated using what is under the fuselage or not. ie span x mean chord. Some areas are given from the root chord out, naturally x2.
Yes, that is offcourse also a possibility.
Well I can only tell you what every book I have ever read on the Bf-109 has said.
__________________

US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006

Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
DerAdlerIstGelandet is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2005, 10:13 AM   #310
Senior Member
 
Soren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Well I can only tell you what every book I have ever read on the Bf-109 has said.
Offcourse, its not you im blaming, its the sources. My books more or less tells the same story as yours, except there's no Wing-area spec's on the F-K series.
__________________

We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland
Soren is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2005, 11:29 AM   #311
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren

Strange, why would the larger wings of he F-K series have a smaller wing-area than the B-E series smaller wings ?

square tip vs rounded tip

The F-K had ~1"length more per half span but most of the tip was removed.
KraziKanuK is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2005, 09:50 AM   #312
Der Crewchief
 
DerAdlerIstGelandet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country:
That might explain it.
__________________

US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006

Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
DerAdlerIstGelandet is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 07:44 PM   #313
Anonymous
 
Posts: n/a
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/vie...?p=61962#61962)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren
I guess you havent read the AFDU's tests with the 109F i presented, so i will quote it again.

AFDU 28 October 1941: TACTICAL TRIALS Me.109F AIRCRAFT- 7:

No manoeuvrability trials were carried out against other aircraft but the Me.109F was dived up to 420 mph, IAS, with controls trimmed for level flight and it was found that although the elevators had become heavy and the ailerons had stiffened up appreciably, fairly tight turns were still possible.
I found this report - Interesting that you chose to leave out the rest of the paragraph, let me add that for you...

Quote:
"....
It is considered however, that the aircraft could have been out-turned easily by a Spitfire. At high speeds the ailerons are more effective than the fabric ailerons of the Spitfire, but not as good as the metal ones. As a result of the heaviness of the elevators at speeds over 400 m.p.h, violent evasion is not possible, and the aircraft would present a simple target to a following Sptifre. Similarly, a Spitfire attacked by a Me.109F from above should have no difficulty in evading if he turns sharply towards the direction of attack. It is considered that recovery from a high speed dive near the ground would be difficult, as the loss of height entailed is considerable. This may account for occasional reports of Me.109F's being seen to dive straight into the ground without apparently being fired at."
It is not right to put things out of context Soren. You implied this report indicated the Bf109F could turn with the Spitfire, which it most certainly does not!

=S=

Lunatic
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 07:51 PM   #314
Senior Member
 
Soren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/vie...?p=61962#61962)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren
I guess you havent read the AFDU's tests with the 109F i presented, so i will quote it again.

AFDU 28 October 1941: TACTICAL TRIALS Me.109F AIRCRAFT- 7:

No manoeuvrability trials were carried out against other aircraft but the Me.109F was dived up to 420 mph, IAS, with controls trimmed for level flight and it was found that although the elevators had become heavy and the ailerons had stiffened up appreciably, fairly tight turns were still possible.
I found this report - Interesting that you chose to leave out the rest of the paragraph, let me add that for you...

Quote:
"....
It is considered however, that the aircraft could have been out-turned easily by a Spitfire. At high speeds the ailerons are more effective than the fabric ailerons of the Spitfire, but not as good as the metal ones. As a result of the heaviness of the elevators at speeds over 400 m.p.h, violent evasion is not possible, and the aircraft would present a simple target to a following Sptifre. Similarly, a Spitfire attacked by a Me.109F from above should have no difficulty in evading if he turns sharply towards the direction of attack. It is considered that recovery from a high speed dive near the ground would be difficult, as the loss of height entailed is considerable. This may account for occasional reports of Me.109F's being seen to dive straight into the ground without apparently being fired at."
It is not right to put things out of context Soren. You implied this report indicated the Bf109F could turn with the Spitfire, which it most certainly does not!

=S=

Lunatic
I didnt put anything out of context, the point is that the 109 would pull out of 420 mph dive easely, even more easely than a P-51 ! (And yes there are P-51 pilots who confirm this !)

Also didnt you forget this part: "No manoeuvrability trials were carried out against other aircraft"

So NO tests against the Spit were carried out, thereby "Considderet" means absolutely NOTHING ! And a British pilot offcourse would prefere the a Spit, afterall it is a BRITISH plane !
__________________

We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland
Soren is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2005, 08:01 PM   #315
Anonymous
 
Posts: n/a
You cannot use one sentance out of a paragraph to claim the 109 was able to make competitve turns against other aircraft when the very next line clearly disputes such a claim.

=S=

Lunatic
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.1.0
   

AVIATION TOP 100 - www.avitop.com Avitop.com