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Is Spitfire really the BEST British fighter???

Aviation Discuss Is Spitfire really the BEST British fighter??? in the World War II - Aviation forums; Im not sure. I am not saying that it would not overheat at 2 min. I just have not heard ...


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Old 07-10-2005, 07:04 AM   #676
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Im not sure. I am not saying that it would not overheat at 2 min. I just have not heard it. I am up for grabs on this one.
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Old 07-10-2005, 04:57 PM   #677
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I don't know what the limits are either, The P-51s and P-38J/Ls had extreamly efficient cooling systems even to the point they offset a portion of their drag. The P-51 with it's larger plenum was the best system but in some circumstances it still wasn't enough. The 5min max for Allied aircraft was more to avoid overstressing the engine than anything else, in a fight it was ignored.

In the late model German fighters I don't know but restrictions become much less important your desperate, airframe life is minimal, your right over your home field and you have more planes than qualified pilots. Then again those engines were built good enough there almost impossible to reproduce today.

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Old 07-11-2005, 10:02 AM   #678
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Remember cooling is as much to do with the radiators as it is engine power. Just because MW 50 use was permitted for 10 minutes doesn't mean the radiators could cope for that long.

AFAIK, the Germans did speed tests used closed radiators. With closed radiators, cooling is minimal, and the engine will overheat quickly.

So MW 50 might have been useable for 10 minutes, but after a short period you'd have to open the radiators, which would slow down the plane.

Spitfires could not fully close their radiators, they were always at least half open, so cooling (on the VIII/IX at least) was always sufficient.

I believe most Mustang speed figures are also done with partially open radiators, a British test of a Mustang IV (P-51D) at 25 lbs boost notes cooling at the "normal" setting of 7.25" was inadequate, and 8.5" was used instead.

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Finally, you have any more info regarding the use of WEP for more than 5 minutes in the Mustang and late Spitfire?
There's this from US instructions to P-51 pilots:

"It is often asked what the consequences will be if the 5-minute limit at Take-off Power is exceeded. Another frequent inquiry is how long a period must be allowed after the specified time limit has elapsed until Take-off Power can be used. These questions are difficult to answer, since the time limit specified does not mean that engine damage will occur if the limit is exceeded. Instead, the limit means that the total operating time at high power should be kept to a reasonable minimum in the interest of prolonging engine life.

It is generally accepted that high-power operation of an engine results in increased wear and necessitates more frequent overhaul than low-power operation. However, it is apparent that a certain percentage of operating time must be at full power. The engine manufacturer allows for this in qualification tests in which much of the running is done at Take-off Power to prove ability to withstand the resulting loads. It is established in these runs that the engine will handle sustained high power without damage. Nevertheless, it is still the aim of the manufacturer and to the best interest of the pilot to keep within reasonable values the amount of high-power time accumulated in the field. The most satisfactory method for accomplishing this is to establish time limits that will keep pilots constantly aware of the desire to hold high-power periods to the shortest period that the flight plan will allow, so that the total accumulated time and resulting wear can be kept to a minimum. How the time at high power is accumulated is of secondary importance; i.e., it is no worse from the standpoint of engine wear to operate at Take-off Power for one hour straight than it is to operate in twelve 5-minute stretches, provided engine temperatures and pressures are within limits. In fact, the former procedure may even be preferable, as it eliminates temperature cycles which also promote engine wear. Thus if flight conditions occasionally require exceeding time limits, this should not cause concern so long as constant effort is made to keep the over-all time at Take-off Power to the minimum practicable. "

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However, when I came accross the Bf-109 dara things didn't make that much sense. If the spitfire cooling is better, how comes it has a lower maximum cruising speed?
It didn't.

The problem is the definition of "cruise" can be very different to different people. The Spitfire LF VIII (basically the same as the IX, slightly heavier, but retracting tail wheel) had a speed of 386 mph at it's 1 hour rating, ie it could maintain 386 mph for an hour. (and the amount of fuel used at that speed means it wouldn't have had sufficient fuel to maintain that speed for an hour)

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On the other hand I think that data should be taken with caution. The cruise velocities for a G-2 were much lower (I checked on the manual).
Cruise is normally a setting designed to balance speed with range, these high cruise figures are the fastest it's possible to maintain for a considerable period, and not by any stretch of the term "normal".

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Depends on the Aircraft. The Spitfire and the Bf-109 and Fw-190A stayed pretty close to each other on performance, the Fw-190D and Ta-152 overtook the Spitfire pretty much on performance.
The Spitfire was both faster and had a better climb rate than the 190D. Only at extreme altitudes, above 30,000ft, did the handfull of Ta 152s built outperform the Spitfire XIV. Below that the Spitfire was faster with a higher climb rate. The Ta 152 was really a specialist aircraft designed to operate at extreme altitude, it's performance at the actual altitudes combat was taking place at was no more than average by 1944 standards.
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Old 07-11-2005, 02:50 PM   #679
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Exactly and the same goes for the Fw-190 and even Bf-109G and K.
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Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
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Old 07-12-2005, 11:29 AM   #680
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Hop

Thank you for that info on the P-51 engine WEP. I assume the conditions would be similar for the Griffon engines in the Spitfires.

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Remember cooling is as much to do with the radiators as it is engine power. Just because MW 50 use was permitted for 10 minutes doesn't mean the radiators could cope for that long


From this statement I understand that you cannot apply MW-50 for long periods at full power. Do you have any german data for this point? the only place were I read about the engine overheating were soviet tests, and the model tested was a G-6, which didn't have MW-50 -the G-6 with it was named G-6/AS-.

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Old 07-12-2005, 02:17 PM   #681
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I have read that the 109G could overheat from sitting at fly on ground for too long on really hot days. Whether this is true or not I do not know. Anyone know?
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Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
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Old 07-12-2005, 02:20 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet
I have read that the 109G could overheat from sitting at fly on ground for too long on really hot days. Whether this is true or not I do not know. Anyone know?
Actually any recip could overheat at idle on the ground on a hot day!
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Old 07-12-2005, 05:09 PM   #683
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From this statement I understand that you cannot apply MW-50 for long periods at full power.
I think you can, provided the engine doesn't get too hot. And to stop it getting too hot you have to open the radiators more, which means you can't go as fast.

In other words, the German speed figures can only be achieved for short periods. Even if you can run at the required power settings for longer, you have to open the radiators to do so, and the published German speed figures are usually obtained with both maximum power and closed radiators.
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Old 07-13-2005, 05:58 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Actually any recip could overheat at idle on the ground on a hot day!
That is what I always though atleast. So did the 109G overheat quicker than others or is this just a statement about a 109G.
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Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
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Old 07-13-2005, 08:32 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Actually any recip could overheat at idle on the ground on a hot day!
That is what I always though atleast. So did the 109G overheat quicker than others or is this just a statement about a 109G.
I never heard that the -109 overheated quicker (or later) than allied contemporaries.
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Old 07-13-2005, 12:28 PM   #686
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I am going to have to find where I read that. I am just trying to see if anyone else knows anything else about it because it really is the first time that I read that.
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Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
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Old 07-14-2005, 07:41 AM   #687
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The Bf-109G/K had some issues that should be taken into account when comparing to the Spitfire. By the end of the war the materials and productiom standards were becoming poorer:

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Another point to consider here is the following; the K-4 may have been the latest variant of the venerable 109 but it was above all a product of Germany's late-war industry ..with all the associated quality control problems.. accounts from pilots who flew K-4s in late April 1945 list an array of defects..aircraft poorly trimmed, instruments incorrectly calibrated, no oxygen and no master compass... With chaos reigning as Hartmann's unit fell back before the Russians is it likely that he would take off in an aircraft that would potentially let him down....but of course we'll never know...
http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Stu.../hartmann.html

The second issue is maneouvrability; at high speeds the late G and K had improved over previous versions but at medium and low regimes it was worse.

It would be nice if somebody can provide more data on these issues.

Regards.
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Old 07-14-2005, 09:18 AM   #688
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I can actually believe that. They were getting desperate at that time of the war.
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Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
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