Spitfire XIV vs Bf-109 K-4 vs La-7 vs Yak-3

[Marcel]

Maybe you (Bill and Soren) should both quit. Neither of you is going to admit anything and whatever discussion you both did, it never lead anywhere except for boring the hell out of the rest of us and having another thread closed.

[Soren]

said things I should not have out of fustration

Which I have undoubtedly also done in my fights with Bill, and I'm sure it goes both ways.

Fact is that when you're called a bonehead you're not really in the mood of saying; "Oh dang it, you were right!", and this I believe is the reason for Bill & I's mud slinging.

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Sorry you seem you also slightly misunderstood my post as much as I did yours.

Yes indeed Sorry to say but I missed out on the part about Soren proposing to drgondog to use - involve Crumpp.

Regards
Kruska

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Bill there's no point in dismantling the email, what was said was said to the specific question & comment made, it's all in the original context.

I only quoted you once and Gene got to see the whole thread as-well, so he got the whole argument in its original context.

Now come on Bill, just admit you were wrong this time.

And you quoted me out of context Soren as well as add to your own original statement - when you had no clue about the aeroelastic effect to cause the stall.

Here is your email to Gene

Hello Crumpp,

I (Or we) need your knowledge on something, you see recently I got into an argument with a member at another forum for saying this:

The Fw-190's wing achieved elliptical lift distribution during G's because of aeroelasticity negating the original 2 degree twist applied to the 190's wing. This is what caused the violent departure in turns when pulling G's as compared to when stalling at 1 G.

This I learned from reading your posts as-well as Lednicer's article, however now I am being told I have misunderstood you & Lednicer by Bill, who you seem to know already. Bill says :
"the Fw 190 and the Spitfire and the Mustang all start with somewhat of an elliptical lift distribution BEFORE the turn and have an 'elliptical like' (more for Spit/less for Fw 190 and Mustang) lift distribution in the turn"

I disagree with what Bill says.


Here is the exchange with your original point and my reply to it

Originally Posted by Soren
LoL ! Wiggle wiggle! Trying to dodge the subject at hand are we Bill ??

Crumpp & Lednicer agree that the the Fw-190 achieved elliptical lift distribution in turns, just like I tried to explain to you, and both explaining how!

Bill replies - "Uh, no they don't say that.. and the Fw 190 and the Spitfire and the Mustang all start with somewhat of an elliptical lift distribution BEFORE the turn and have an 'elliptical like' (more for Spit/less for Fw 190 and Mustang) lift distribution in the turn.

Nothing about G forces 'achieve' elliptical lift in turns, they (G forces) only tend to shift lift distribution based on aeroelastic effects."

Check it out with Gene - have him copy me on the reply."

You care to point out how your quote of what I said to gene - is in context? I underlined the aeroelastic 'addition' to your original statement to me to show how you 'alter' truth in your 'original quotes'

Would you say you didn't alter the context by not telling Gene that the statement I made was in reply to your statement, and that it was a rebuttal? Or 'add' the aeroelastic piece to your email comment when

[Hunter368]

I think I see a little light at the end of the tunnel Soren and Bill!!!! Keep it going guys.

Bury the hatch.

[Hunter368]

Well perhaps Bill did not see Soren's last post or two.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Example: Syscom can be the most annoying person to debate with on the face of the planet

I will agree with that. I have butted heads with him probably as much as with Soren.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I will agree with that. I have butted heads with him probably as much as with Soren.

I agree, I have walked away from the computer b/c of him out of frustration. It is like talking to a wall at times with Syscom.

But he does not respond with rude remarks, just "his facts". Which I respect.

[drgondog]

Marcel - you are right - it is boring and I will stop.

If Gene agrees with Soren he will let us all know and I welcome the correction after he reads this thread.

Regards,

Bill

[Hunter368]

Well said Bill

[Soren]

Thank god!

I will accept what'ever Gene says as I know he knows more than I & Bill do.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

LoL, Bill quit it alright, just admit you were wrong for crying out loud!

You have clearly & openly claimed that the Fw-190 did NOT achieve elliptical lift distribution in turns, you were proven wrong first by me then by Gene.

I thought I could quit but for the last time you have misquoted me again Soren

Originally Posted by Soren
LoL ! Wiggle wiggle! Trying to dodge the subject at hand are we Bill ??

Crumpp & Lednicer agree that the the Fw-190 achieved elliptical lift distribution in turns, just like I tried to explain to you, and both explaining how!

Bill replies - "Uh, no they don't say that.. and the Fw 190 and the Spitfire and the Mustang all start with somewhat of an elliptical lift distribution BEFORE the turn and have an 'elliptical like' (more for Spit/less for Fw 190 and Mustang) lift distribution in the turn.

Nothing about G forces 'achieve' elliptical lift in turns, they (G forces) only tend to shift lift distribution based on aeroelastic effects."

Check it out with Gene - have him copy me on the reply."

Care to parse this one more time..??

I said they ALL had elliptical like distributions BEFORE the turns and in the turns - ALL, BEFORE, IN are the key words.

the reason I said 'eliptical like' is that no wing IS pure 'elliptical' except pure elliptical planform wing - although varying tip top chord ratios can approach that. (I said that and Gene said this about tip geometry)

I said the Spit had More of an elliptical wing loading.. Gene said The Spit Had More elliptical wing loading. The reason the Spit wing fell away from Pure is that a) twist at the wing tip to delay tip stall, and b.) it wasn't a pure elliptical planform.

[Marcel]

[Soren]

when you had no clue about the aeroelastic effect to cause the stall.

I was aware of that from the very beginning Bill and a long time before that as-well.

[Marcel]