 | SturmFw's| Aviation Discuss SturmFw's in the World War II - Aviation forums; yes I do and I can tell you the B-26 histoprians are hiding the facts from all of us. ... |
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10-26-2005, 02:44 PM
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#16 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,665
Country:  | yes I do and I can tell you the B-26 histoprians are hiding the facts from all of us. Out of any US bomber groups the B-26 ones in the ETO have the smallest of the small when it comes to information released to the public through the Historical archivs or the historians of individual bomb groups upon their own admission; conveniently lost...........
Fw 190's of JG 11 and IV.Sturm/JG 3 took it to them during the heavy aerial battels over the Ardenne.
Both these gruppen were vectored upong the twin engine units the date I covered and inf act for JG 3 they thought they were going after B-17's as a cloud deck seperated them and the US bombers as they were not visible
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10-26-2005, 02:53 PM
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#17 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,533
Country: | Excellent info...
__________________  "Boyington was a Drunk, but He was a Drunk We'd Follow Straight Into Hell..."
-- Lt. William Northrop Case | |
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10-26-2005, 03:08 PM
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#18 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,665
Country: | Les, syscom a friend Oskar Bosch was on this particular defence op and it is probably archived as I included a brief of his story. He lost full power nearly and a fuel line was severed by the tail position on one of the B-26's and as his staffel zoomed forward on the attack Oskar's SturmFw slowed down to almost a crawl and the remaining B-26's let go with their .50's riddling his Sturm. he banked away to be pursued by a solo P-47 which then abandoned Oskar as the German pilot let his heavy Sturmbocke drop like a rock to earth and the last moments bailed out. Oskar still has some momentos of this striken Fw in his small collection at home and in interviews with me has mentioned it was another day that God protected him as he should of been killed .....
Oskar and his 14Sturmstaffel with his Schwarze 14 on the left. Oskar is on the right in the sommer Lederjacke. Cica Decvember of 44..... The pic and article front is from friend neil pages Sturm pages in the UK mag SAM several years ago. i supplied the copy of the original photo
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10-26-2005, 03:46 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 7,863
| Erich, this is quite interesting about the B26's. Im going to do some investigating about it. Thanks for the heads up!
On another note - Did you ever correspond with a Me262 pilot that lived in Los Angeles in the 70's and 80's? I think he worked for TWA.
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10-26-2005, 04:11 PM
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#20 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,665
Country: | Syscom good luck and I hope you are more successwful than me. Yes I know a former bomber-fighter Me 262 pilot in your area who actually was wounded on a jet bomber mission during 45, his previous service had been on the Ost front and over England earlier in the war with the Me 410. Sad the guy is a die hard in my opinion | |
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10-26-2005, 05:30 PM
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#21 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Rising Above
Posts: 1,205
Country: | Erich:
I recall your comments regarding this particular battle in some other thread in the past.
In the past several of the members unleashed rants on me because of my constant remarks regarding the lies, distortions and manipulations of the allied propaganda -namely of the USA and England- both during and after the war.
What Erich has commented here emerges as sound evidence to prove they have lied, distorted and/or concealed information about episodes when they got gutted by the enemy.
Right, this is just one case, the air battles of December 23, 1944. Many others have been detected as well.
The interesting point is, how many material facts have been knowingly and willfuly concealed, falsified or manipulated in any manner whatsoever that most of us are not still aware of?
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10-26-2005, 05:45 PM
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#22 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,533
Country: | Quote: |
The interesting point is, how many material facts have been knowingly and willfuly concealed, falsified or manipulated in any manner whatsoever that most of us are not still aware of?
| Alot.... Its no great mystery that kill totals are inflated/not reported...
__________________ "Boyington was a Drunk, but He was a Drunk We'd Follow Straight Into Hell..."
-- Lt. William Northrop Case | |
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10-26-2005, 06:39 PM
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#23 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Japan
Posts: 451
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Udet Erich:
I recall your comments regarding this particular battle in some other thread in the past.
In the past several of the members unleashed rants on me because of my constant remarks regarding the lies, distortions and manipulations of the allied propaganda -namely of the USA and England- both during and after the war.
What Erich has commented here emerges as sound evidence to prove they have lied, distorted and/or concealed information about episodes when they got gutted by the enemy.
Right, this is just one case, the air battles of December 23, 1944. Many others have been detected as well.
The interesting point is, how many material facts have been knowingly and willfuly concealed, falsified or manipulated in any manner whatsoever that most of us are not still aware of? |
Nah Udet. I think its because you make your own claims about Allied 'lies, distortions and manipulations' while taking similar German claims at face value. I don't have issue with you, just when your apparent "Deutschland uber alles" attitude runs amok. The truth is often far more complex that you seem willing to realise.
The claims during the war and in the immediate post war period all have to be taken with a grain or two of salt, often some very large ones at that. However, there has been some 50 years of serious scholarship put in on the subject, most of which you seem to dismiss because it doesn't agree with your point of view. Case in point your views of the Sealion operation in Sorens 'really what if' thread. | |
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10-26-2005, 07:23 PM
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#24 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Rising Above
Posts: 1,205
Country: | Jabber:
(1) If you decide to have issues with me, go ahead, I wonīt mind.
(2) I can guarantee you a rough going attempting to prove "I am making my own claims" against the allies.
Now, in view of your comments, it is about prudent to illustrate you how is it that I function here:
Unlike the allied side advocators, when one is attempting to "defend" the view of the defeated side of a war -Germany in this case- he will have to climb his way up from the very bottom of the pit.
A hell of a pit when the defeated is the Germany of World War II.
Believe me, although I consider myself a young creature, I am not a prat to defend what can not be defended.
Itīs plentiful of elements here and there to prove you they lie, conceal and distort.
Although the Gold Medal for propaganda services lies in the neck of the soviets, the propaganda of the western kids was also very prolific.
Allied advocators are everywhere, in huge numbers, available to show up and sing the "we had better engines, better cooling systems, better guns, better ammo, better fuselages, better pilots, better tactics, better everything" old song.
Right, the majority of the most frequent posters here in this forum are people who have either read, researched, travelled and met with veterans who were there, making their opinions way more balanced, still I am not here to praise the allied effort for it has been praised for 60 years so far.
So my point for start is the very bottom of the pit, with solid elements to climb and to eventually emerge to the surface.
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In a national survey, 92% of the French people believed they are not ugly: 93% of them were wrong. | |
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10-26-2005, 11:19 PM
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#25 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 580
| Allied Axis and Soviet kill numbers are usually heavily exaggerated, whether in planes tanks or on foot, so I don't get involved in (lies, damned lies and) figures. Some unbeleivable feats will be actually true though.
However stories, they are interesting. | |
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10-27-2005, 01:10 PM
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#26 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 7,863
| B26 losses on Dec 23 1944
I found some information that shows Erich was correct. The 391st and 397th BG's were hammered hard, and I mean HAMMERED HARD!!!! I looked at all the MACR's for this date and sorted the data for B26's and 9th AF. Heres the results.
Unit histories can gloss over loss's, but they cant lie about the MACR's.
"The newly minted Army Air Corps went to the flight surgeon with a complaint. He said, "Doc, I'm constipated all the time, what can I do?" After examination, the Doc said, "I can give you a strong laxative, or assign you to a B-26 outfit!" - hehehehehehehehe
Note - Worldwide, there were 77 total aircraft loss's on this date (only for AAF)
MACR # Date A/C Type Serial # Group Squadron
*11659 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *41-31896 *323
*11403 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-10757 387
*11464 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-10759 387 *559
*11465 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *41-31657 *387
*11482 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95869 *387 *559
*11485 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95838 *391 *574
*11486 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34440 *391 *575
*11551 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95932 *391 *575
*11651 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34309 *391 *574
*11660 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *44-67826 *391 *574
*11661 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-107671 391 *575
*11662 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95825 *391 *573
*11663 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-107747 391 *573
*11664 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95865 *391 *574
*11669 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-107597 391 *574
*11670 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95844 *391 *575
*11671 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95841 *391 *574
*11672 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34361 *391 *574
*11673 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95798 *391 *574
*11674 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *41-35010 *391 *574
*11677 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95818 *391 *574
*11876 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95878 *391
*11402 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-96061 *394 *584
*10877 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-96309 *397
*11349 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-96280 *397
*11483 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-96144 *397 *596
*11487 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-96182 *397
*11490 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34434 *397
*11549 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34221 *397
*11897 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34159 *397
*11898 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34185 *397
*11985 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34430 *397
*11986 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34139 *397
*13039 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34136 *397
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10-27-2005, 01:11 PM
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#27 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,533
Country: | Talk about having a bad day...
__________________ "Boyington was a Drunk, but He was a Drunk We'd Follow Straight Into Hell..."
-- Lt. William Northrop Case | |
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10-27-2005, 02:02 PM
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#28 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,665
Country: | Syscom well you got farther than me I must say with the two twin engine groups. I wrote both the group historians some years back and was given the answer that I mentioned...........the info is lost. "Can I at least get the amount of losses and the squadrons ? " Nope ! was the replies. All I can say is I hope those two guys have retired and someone else with a little more say and gratitude that I was even trying to get the real story correct and not German/US Bullshit.
For December 23, 1944 here is what the Luftwaffe reported:
135 Luftw. A/C destroyed wioth another 64 with 60 % damage or less. 64 German crewmen KIA with 4 POW and 36 wounded; talk about a rough action !
IV.Sturm/JG 3 calimed 35 B-26's and were given credit for 31 of them, and 1 P-47
I./JG 11 also flying the Fw 190A-8 had 18 B-26 claims with 2 P-47 and 2 P-51's.
there is a monstrous hoidge podge of German gruppen that got mixed up and attacked anything that was Allied and of course with the above losses felt the sting of numercial superiority.
I./JG 1 3 P-47
III./JG 1 1 B-17, 1 B-17HSS
I./JG 2 5 B-26
II./JG 2 1 B-26, 1 P-47
III./JG 2 3 P-47
III./JG 3 3 B-26
I./JG 4 1 Spitfire
III./JG 4 1 P-51
IV./JG 4 3 P-47
II./JG 11 7 B-26, 1 P-47, 1 P-38
III./JG 11 11 P-47
I./JG 26 3 B-26
II./JG 26 6 Lancasters, 1 Mossie, 1 P-51
II./JG 27 1 B-17HSS
III./JG 27 3 P-47
IV./JG 27 1 P-47, 2 P-51
III./JG 54 2 B-26
IV./JG 54 flying Fw 190A-8's : 2 B-26, 2 P-47
I./JG 77 1 B-26, 1 P-38
III./JG 77 3 P-47
Danny parker in his book "To win the winter sky" hardly says much about this date except the Luftwaffe got pounded...........I personjally think his work is crap though. By the way the high scorers agasint B-26's, I./JG 11 lost 16 Fw's most to Allied escorts and the IV.Sturm/JG 3 lost 8 Sturms, one of them was Oskars
E ~
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10-27-2005, 02:15 PM
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#29 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 7,863
| Erich, is it possible a few of the B26 loss's were due to flak? Also, did any of the German fighter loss's ultimatley were figured to be due to damage from their own AA?
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10-27-2005, 02:53 PM
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#30 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 7,863
| Heres a list of all worldwide USAAF aircraft losses on Dec 23rd 1944.
I havent sliced and diced it for 8th and 9th AF loss's only, but it seems, most of the losses are from those units.
MACR # Date A/C Type Serial # Group Squadron
*10846 *12/23/1944 *A-20 *44-617 *47
*11346 *12/23/1944 *B-17 *44-6619 *94 *331
*10934 *12/23/1944 *B-24 *44-49336 *885
*12257 *12/23/1944 *B-25 *43-4178 *7
*14626 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95878 *1
*11590 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34238 *17
*11591 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95753 *320
*11659 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *41-31896 *323
*11464 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-107598 387 *559
*11482 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95869 *387 *559
*11403 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-107577 387
*11465 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *41-31657 *387
*11662 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95825 *391 *573
*11663 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-107747 391 *573
*11485 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95838 *391 *574
*11651 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34309 *391 *574
*11660 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *44-67826 *391 *574
*11664 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95865 *391 *574
*11669 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-107597 391 *574
*11671 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95841 *391 *574
*11672 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34361 *391 *574
*11673 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95798 *391 *574
*11674 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *41-35010 *391 *574
*11677 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95818 *391 *574
*11486 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34440 *391 *575
*11551 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95932 *391 *575
*11661 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-107671 391 *575
*11670 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95844 *391 *575
*11876 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-95878 *391
*11402 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-96061 *394 *584
*11483 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-96144 *397 *596
*10877 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-96309 *397
*11349 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-96280 *397
*11487 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *42-96182 *397
*11490 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34434 *397
*11549 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34221 *397
*11897 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34159 *397
*11898 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34185 *397
*11985 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34430 *397
*11986 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34139 *397
*13039 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34136 *397
*11404 *12/23/1944 *B-26 *43-34423 *450
*10695 *12/23/1944 *C-47 *43-48407 *435 *76
*10696 *12/23/1944 *C-47 *43-48938 *435
*10706 *12/23/1944 *C-47 *43-30731 *435
*11024 *12/23/1944 *C-47 *42-92087 *438
*10697 *12/23/1944 *C-47 *42-100870 441
*11025 *12/23/1944 *C-47 *43-48056 *9
*11026 *12/23/1944 *C-47 *43-47972 *9
*11027 *12/23/1944 *C-47 *43-47963 *9
*11167 *12/23/1944 *F-5 *44-23603 *7
*11406 *12/23/1944 *F-6 *42-103226 67
*11420 *12/23/1944 *P-38 *42-62004 *367 *392
*11413 *12/23/1944 *P-38 *42-68081 *474
*14557 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *42-28827 *350
*11607 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *42-76267 *358
*11443 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *42-28815 *36
*11446 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *42-75860 *36
*11503 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *42-74735 *36
*11435 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *42-76437 *362
*11428 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *42-76482 *368
*11489 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *44-19916 *368
*11436 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *44-20263 *373
*11437 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *42-28425 *373
*11445 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *42-28411 *373
*11493 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *42-26942 *373
*11416 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *44-19748 *406
*11422 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *42-29214 *406
*11085 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *44-19767 *56 *62
*11307 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *44-20615 *56 *62
*11306 *12/23/1944 *P-47 *44-19911 *56 *63
*10966 *12/23/1944 *P-51 *44-11117 *23
*10734 *12/23/1944 *P-51 *44-15144 *332
*11328 *12/23/1944 *P-51 *44-11689 *357 *362
*11461 *12/23/1944 *P-51 *44-14064 *361 *375
*11072 *12/23/1944 *P-51 *44-14596 *479 *434
*11081 *12/23/1944 *P-51 *44-13643 *55 *343
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