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11-09-2005, 11:53 PM
| #76 | |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 10,283
| Quote:
Well Erich, do you have more info on what happened as seen from the German perspective?
__________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?" | |
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11-10-2005, 12:08 AM
| #77 |
| the old Sage   Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 10,775
| last shot is of Dahl in his Stab III./JG 3 Bf 109G-6. I won't even guess as to how many kills Dahl or Loos had. Much of what Petr has on the RK winners is from Obermaiers fighter aces history and although excellent has errors within. Great piece of work though. syscom our web-site covers a bit on the raid but I guess I need to pull out all my notes and further this. ZG 26 was also involved with Me 410's but they did not account for much. IV.Sturm/JG 3 and II.Sturm/JG 3 plus the high cover 109G-6's of I./JG 300 accounted for 55 US heavy bombers on 7-7-44. the 8th and the 15th AF both felt the SturmFw sting ......
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11-10-2005, 01:20 AM
| #78 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 23
 | Usless fact, if 55 B-17's were lined up wingtip to wingtip, that would stretch approx 1 mile, 500 feet. that is a long walk of aircraft shot down on 7-7-44. as I said....usless fact....... Kevin |
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11-10-2005, 03:46 PM
| #79 |
| the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 10,775
| to 7-7-44 and the confusion, here is official US AF documentation: EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 458: 1,129 bombers and 756 fighters are dispatched to attack synthetic oil plants, aircraft assembly plants and engine works, airfields and an equipment depot, marshalling yards railway station and railway repair shops in Germany; 37 bombers and 6 fighters are lost: 1. Of 373 B-24s, 102 hit Lutzkendorf and 64 hit Halle oil plants, 90 hit Bernburg and 73 hit Aschersleben aircraft plants and 8 hit targets of opportunity; they claim 39-5-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 28 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 126 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 11 WIA and 274 MIA. Escort is provided by 224 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim 46-1-16 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 3 P-51s are lost (pilots are MIA). 2. Of 303 B-17s, 64 hit Bohlen and 51 hit Merseburg oil plants, 67 hit Kolleda and 32 hit Lutzkendorf Airfields, 22 hit targets of opportunity and 16 hit Gottingen marshalling yard; 2 B-17s are lost and 112 damaged; 3 airmen are WIA and 20 MIA. Escort is provided by 185 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim 9-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 3-0-1 on the ground; 1 P-47 and 1 P-51 are lost (pilots are MIA). 3. Of 453 B-17s, 114 hit Leipzig/Taucha, 79 hit Leipzig/Mockau, 35 hit Leipzig/Heiterblick and 15 hit Leipzig/Abtnaundorf oil plants, 46 hit Leipzig bearing industry, 35 hit Kolleda Airfield, 19 hit Leipzig Station and 7 hit Nordhausen; 7 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 152 damaged; 15 airmen are KIA, 5 WIA and 50 MIA. Escort is provided by 247 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 20-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 1 P-51 is damaged beyond repair (pilot is WIA). Mission 459: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France and Belgium during the night. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 100+ A-20s and B-26s bomb rail bridge near Tours, and targets of opportunity in the Lisieux and Beuzeville areas; 500+ fighters fly escort and area cover, carry out armed reconnaissance of communication and troop activity, and bomb railroads, rolling stock, marshalling yards, ammunition dumps, and bridges in frontline areas and wide areas of W France; HQ 36th Fighter Group moves from Kingsnorth, England to Brucheville; and the 377th, 378th and 379th Fighter Squadrons, 362d Fighter Group, move from Headcorn, England to Lignerolles with P-47s. In England, the 392d Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group, moves from Stony Cross to Ibsley with P-38s. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 560+ bombers attack in Germany and Yugoslavia; B-17s bomb 2 synthetic oil plants at Blechhammer, Germany; B-24s also hit Blechhammer and a synthetic oil and coking plant at Odertal, Germany and Zagreb, Yugoslavia Airfield and marshalling yard; the bombers and fighter escorts claim 50+ aircraft shot down during fierce battle with 275- 300 fighters mainly in the Vienna-Budapest area; 18 US aircraft are listed as destroyed and a larger number missing. be aware that many of the 15th AF bombers flew northwad and were subject to SturmFw attacks
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11-10-2005, 03:50 PM
| #80 |
| "World Traveller"   Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Royal Deeside/St Andrews, Scotland, UK
Posts: 15,224
  | Good info Erich!
__________________  "Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal, it is the Courage to Continue that Counts" Sir Winston Churchill "To him the People of the World Largely owe the Freedom and Liberties they Enjoy Today" Enscription on Hugh Dowding's (AOC Fighter Command 1936-40) statue in London WW2 Talk: A WW2 Discussion Forum My Photo Collections on Flickr |
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11-10-2005, 04:58 PM
| #81 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 10,283
| Heres a list of all the USAAF aircraft missing in the ETO on July 7 1944 MACR Group Aircraft 6803 4 P-51 6701 20 P-38 7353 44 B-24 7354 44 B-24 7355 44 B-24 6514 52 P-51 6573 82 P-38 6696 353 P-47 6794 355 P-51 6792 355 P-51 6694 357 P-51 6657 362 P-47 6646 368 P-47 6645 368 P-47 6664 370 P-38 7358 379 B-17 7357 379 B-17 6632 379 B-26 7492 389 B-24 7366 389 B-24 7365 389 B-24 7364 389 B-24 7363 389 B-24 7367 390 B-17 7368 390 B-17 7371 392 B-24 7370 392 B-24 7216 392 B-24 7369 392 B-24 7218 392 B-24 7221 398 B-17 7219 398 B-17 7222 401 B-17 6373 451 B-24 7226 453 B-24 6371 454 B-24 6571 454 B-24 6569 454 B-24 6515 455 B-24 8195 457 B-17 7227 458 B-24 6815 459 B-24 6591 459 B-24 6593 460 B-24 6566 463 B-17 6864 463 B-17 6862 463 B-17 6572 464 B-24 6570 464 B-24 6588 464 B-24 6594 464 B-24 6590 464 B-24 6957 465 B-24 7549 489 B-24 7238 492 B-24 7236 492 B-24 7831 492 B-24 7228 492 B-24 7232 492 B-24 7230 492 B-24 7237 492 B-24 7235 492 B-24 7233 492 B-24 7229 492 B-24 7231 492 B-24 7239 492 B-24 7240 802 MOSQUITO
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11-13-2005, 03:54 PM
| #82 |
| the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 10,775
| just noted this last night..........from EE
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11-13-2005, 04:04 PM
| #83 |
| Minister of Whoopass  Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 17,506
| Early 2006 means Summer 2006.... Hopefully I'll be finished with Vol. I before this one comes out... BTW gentlemen, this book, Jagdeschader 300 Vol. I is unreal.... The pics and the text, as well as the paper used, are all top of the line.... Definatly worth the 75.00 and I'm only in Chapter 3...
__________________  My IL2 Video Tribute to My Grandfather: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzN5RuNNJk |
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11-13-2005, 04:54 PM
| #84 |
| Der Crewchief  Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 33,152
| Will deffinatly check that one. It is time to buy some new books anyhow for my collection.
__________________  fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I] |
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02-20-2006, 07:10 AM
| #85 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 503
| Cancelled. Last edited by GT; 04-10-2006 at 01:46 PM. |
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02-20-2006, 11:44 AM
| #86 |
| the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 10,775
| do you have a first name and where did his last name come from .........a book ?
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02-20-2006, 12:06 PM
| #87 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Krakow, Poland
Posts: 11
| Hi, According Publisher (Schiffer edition) cover painting of Willi Reschke JG 301/302 book present "(...)12./Jg 301 Sturmbocks crossed paths with the 352nd FG (...)" Also Reschke himself mentioned (see page 163, 189 and 192) that he flew Fw 190 with 30 mm cannons. Any comments ? Also, I want to present my list of Sturmgruppen aces (10+ kills) Pilot---Units-- Claims (Sturmgruppen Units only ) Werner Gerth; Sturmstaffel 1, IV.(Sturm)/JG3; 26(22 Viermotors) ; KIA 2 11 44 Klaus Neumann; IV.(Sturm)/JG3; 20 (19) Konrad Bauer; II.(Sturm)/JG 300; 16 (10 Vier) [36 ? (29 Viermotors ? )] Walter Loos; IV.(Sturm)/JG3 JG 300; ~17( 9 ) Willi Maximowitz; Sturmstaffel 1, IV.(Sturm)/JG3; 15(15) + 12 VVS a/c; KIA 20 04 45 Klaus Bretschneider; II.(Sturm)/JG 300; 14 (13); KIA 24 12 44 Walter Dahl; Stab/JG 300; 14(12) Siegfried Müller; Sturmstaffel 1, IV.(Sturm)/JG3; 12(9) + 3 VVS Rudolf Zwesken; II.(Sturm)/JG 300; 12+ (7+) Willi Unger; IV.(Sturm)/JG3; 11(11) + 3 VVS Gerhard Vivroux; Sturmstaffel 1, IV.(Sturm)/JG3; 11(10); WIA 6 10 44 DOW 25 10 44 Wolfgang Kosse; Sturmstaffel 1, IV.(Sturm)/JG3; 11(6) KIA 24 12 44 Oskar Bösch; Sturmstaffel 1, IV.(Sturm)/JG3; 10( 8 ) + 8 VVS Oskar Romm; IV.(Sturm)/JG3 10( 8 ) + 6 VVS Rudolf Metz; Sturmstaffel 1, II(Sturm)./JG 4; 9(9); KIA 6 10 44 |
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02-20-2006, 12:24 PM
| #88 |
| the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 10,775
| Gizmo your list needs some additions. Dahls score can be questioned as well as Walter Loos and the last pilots score has never been officially accounted for as some of his supposed kills were not recorded. friend Oskar Bösch actually had a total of 19 kills though he credits himself with 18. JG 301/302 book by Schiffer cover pic of a Fw 190A-8/R2, not a SturmFw and actually no proof of that colour or marking schemem by any fotos. III./JG 300 was the Schwere gruppe of JG 301 and in september/October 44 before they accepted some Ta 152H's later were to perform Sturm like tactics but the Fw's had NO heavy armor, in cat the outside 2cm was replaced by the Mk 108's sometimes but the usal armament was just for the regular A-8. The gruppe attacked by 3-5 a/c at a time in a small wedge up[on the bombers and this is what they did on 26 November 44 against the 445th bg (lost 5 B-24's) and the 491st bg (lost 16), all to JG 301 Fw 190A's. My cousin was KIA on this mission flying his Fw 190A-9, white 2 while in 5./JG 301, Siegfried Baer. I have not checked my sources but I do believe that Schiffers book cover is for the disasterous March 2, 45 mission when the 352nd blue nose Mustangs blasted JG 301
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02-20-2006, 12:35 PM
| #89 |
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Krakow, Poland
Posts: 11
| Thanks for the quick answer. According publisher, book cover is for 21st November 1944 clash. |
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02-20-2006, 12:46 PM
| #90 |
| the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 10,775
| interesting that is the first mission that JG 301 flew as a Gefechtsverband in unity. came out of the clouds to blast one B-17 formation, the 398th bomb group lost 10-15 bombers accorind to their historian. Roger Freeman in his mighty eighth war diary gives losses at 5 B-17's only. Very little is actually known about that mission though. much of the JG 301 kills were given to JG 1 which is odd....this was my cousins first mission while in 5th staffel One other thing is that Will Reschke did not have all availbel infos for his book available to him such as total kills and losses. read through the chapter(s) concerning 1945 and you will find huge gaps with sometimes no dates even given for the missions agasint US and Soviet fighters and the bombings of Soviet bridgeheads with JG 300 fighters
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