SturmFw's - Aircraft of World War II

Erich · 06-15-2005, 02:50 PM

working with artist Randy Wright at present for his web-site filling him in on the German attack which took out 30 B-24's of the 445th bomb group near Kassel on 27 September 1944.

it was a slaughter, with 118 US crewsmen KIA and 25 German pilots KIA. Only with the help of the "Yellowjackets", 361st fg was the bomb group able to send 4-6 B-24's back home to England with varyuing amounts of damage...

evangilder · 06-15-2005, 03:00 PM

Nice pic, terrible event.

Erich · 06-15-2005, 03:14 PM

closest Fw 190Sturm is white 20 flown by pilot Erich Keller who shot down 1 B-24 and another out of formation. Upper right white 4 ? and lower is probably the Staffelkapitän of 5.Sturm/JG 4 flying Weiße 1-?

5th staffel put in for 14 kills of B-24's alone with 40 being claimed by the whole II.Sturm/JG 4, about 30 too many.

Dr. Hubert Chlond whom passed away a year ago shot down 2. He was flying Weiße 14.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-20-2005, 05:12 PM

Good pic.

Udet · 06-21-2005, 01:49 PM

Erich:

Do you happen to know the total (approximate) number of heavy bombers that were shot down by the three Sturmgruppen during the war?

Erich · 06-21-2005, 02:49 PM

for JG 3 and JG 4 yes. not till the two volumes on JG 300 are published.......I have an idea but the claims are not correct with the actual amount of kills as JG 300 overclaimed. The volumes on the JG 300 unit will correct that. 25-30 years of research have gone into the French and English volumes. The French edition is available now and the English volume 1 is due sometime in July

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-21-2005, 03:00 PM

And come on old friend what are the numbers?

Erich · 06-21-2005, 03:17 PM

Geezo..........

ok for SturmFw's from II.Sturm/JG 4 not counting the days of the original Sturmstaffel 1

JG 4 Sturms : 85 US bombers shot down. I took off 20 that were extra from their claims on 27 September 1944 as they only shot down 10 not 30 as they put in for.

JG 3 Sturms coming up but they will take a bit of time

Erich · 06-21-2005, 03:32 PM

JG 3 Sturms from 7-7-44 till the time in the Ost front.

262 US heavy bombers
30 B-26's on 23.12.1944

JG 4 Sturms first mission was 11.09.1944

JG 300 Sturms first mission was 7-7-44 as a complete Sturm unit but had attacked US heavy bombers even back in June of 44 over the Reich. when I find out through the data base hopefully it will not include RAF 4 engine bombers in the total. I believe and this should not be taken as fact, the JG 300 claimed something like 2,000 plus kills but that is probably true if we count it's first mission in July of 43 over the burning city of Hamburg. As I mentioned the two volumes on the unit will be worth waiting for .....

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-21-2005, 07:13 PM

Now these are just the kills for the Sturm FW's correct and not other units kills or other aircraft such as the Bf-109's, Bf-110's....etc.

Erich · 06-21-2005, 07:17 PM

just FW 190-A-8/R2's and R-8 variants along with the standard A-8 that was flown in the units but very few.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-21-2005, 07:37 PM

Okay that is what I thought.

Erich · 10-26-2005, 04:00 PM

from II.Sturm/JG 4 on the first two missions the Sturms took part in. thanks to friend Neil page for the translation. herr Chlond was a kind man, sadly passing away a couple of years ago. 5 kills to his credit.

Uffz Kurt Scherer 6 (Sturm)./JG4

"...The sky was full of aeroplanes as far as the eye could see. P-51s dived down onto our close formation but our escorts fought them off. We were getting closer and closer to the bomber stream . The first tracers came flying past my ears. From then on everything happened very quickly. Our formation curved down right into the middle of the bomber stream in a textbook ( schulmässig gerissene Kurve ) manoeuvre. We were flying now in the bomber formation with B-17s in front and behind us. The deadly explosive shells from the first attack formation ( Angriffskeil ) of our Sturmmaschinen drilled into the B-17s that were growing ever bigger. I was amazed at the size of these huge machines, far bigger than I had imagined. But the fate of the four engined bomber growing ever bigger in my gunsight would be decided by my 3 cm cannon...."

Uffz Herbert Chlond 5./JG4

".. My machine was not serviceable on the 11 September and as our Kommandeur , Obstlt von Kornatzki couldn't fly this mission ( for what reason I do not know ) I flew in his aircraft. Although I didn't know it , his plane was fitted with a gun camera. I shot down a B-17 and this kill was recorded, being filmed from the moment I pressed the firing button up to the point where the B-17's rudder and tail fin broke away . I however knew nothing of this until a couple of days later when the film was replayed ... I can still remember how von Kornatzki ordered us that following our first victories we should have the front of the cowling of our aircraft ( Flugzeugnasen ) painted red to put fear into the enemy crews.."

The following day, 12 September, saw another all out effort launched by the three Bomber Divisions of the 8th AF. As a result of the previous days action some fifty pilots of II/JG4 had landed back at airfields other than their own and the unit was ill prepared to meet another major incursion. It was to be a black day for II./JG4. von Kornatzki's machine, Fw 190A-8 'grüne 3' was seen to take hits from the B-17 he was attacking and dropping out of formation , he hit power lines whilst attempting a crash landing. The father of the Sturm idea was dead. His was a loss that was keenly felt by the young and inexperienced pilots to whom he had become a father figure ( Ersatzvater ) . The new Gruppenkommandeur was Major Gerhard Schroeder, formerly of KG51.

Gnomey · 10-26-2005, 04:28 PM

Interesting stuff Erich.

syscom3 · 10-26-2005, 04:38 PM

Erich, you mention 30 B-26s were shot down on Dec 23 1944.

Do you have any other information about this?

Since this was the time of the Battle of the Buldge, did these Sturm units fly support for this offensive, or kept back as a reserve against any 8th AF missions?

06-15-2005, 03:00 PM	#2
evangilder "Shooter" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA Posts: 14,803	Nice pic, terrible event. __________________ http://www.vg-photo.com For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return. Leonardo Da Vinci

06-15-2005, 03:14 PM	#3
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	closest Fw 190Sturm is white 20 flown by pilot Erich Keller who shot down 1 B-24 and another out of formation. Upper right white 4 ? and lower is probably the Staffelkapitän of 5.Sturm/JG 4 flying Weiße 1-? 5th staffel put in for 14 kills of B-24's alone with 40 being claimed by the whole II.Sturm/JG 4, about 30 too many. Dr. Hubert Chlond whom passed away a year ago shot down 2. He was flying Weiße 14. __________________ Rip it up !

06-20-2005, 05:12 PM	#4
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,150	Good pic. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

06-21-2005, 02:49 PM	#6
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	for JG 3 and JG 4 yes. not till the two volumes on JG 300 are published.......I have an idea but the claims are not correct with the actual amount of kills as JG 300 overclaimed. The volumes on the JG 300 unit will correct that. 25-30 years of research have gone into the French and English volumes. The French edition is available now and the English volume 1 is due sometime in July __________________ Rip it up !

06-21-2005, 03:00 PM	#7
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,150	And come on old friend what are the numbers? __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

06-21-2005, 01:49 PM	#5
Udet Banned Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,258	Erich: Do you happen to know the total (approximate) number of heavy bombers that were shot down by the three Sturmgruppen during the war?

06-21-2005, 03:17 PM	#8
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	Geezo.......... ok for SturmFw's from II.Sturm/JG 4 not counting the days of the original Sturmstaffel 1 JG 4 Sturms : 85 US bombers shot down. I took off 20 that were extra from their claims on 27 September 1944 as they only shot down 10 not 30 as they put in for. JG 3 Sturms coming up but they will take a bit of time __________________ Rip it up !

06-21-2005, 03:32 PM	#9
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	JG 3 Sturms from 7-7-44 till the time in the Ost front. 262 US heavy bombers 30 B-26's on 23.12.1944 JG 4 Sturms first mission was 11.09.1944 JG 300 Sturms first mission was 7-7-44 as a complete Sturm unit but had attacked US heavy bombers even back in June of 44 over the Reich. when I find out through the data base hopefully it will not include RAF 4 engine bombers in the total. I believe and this should not be taken as fact, the JG 300 claimed something like 2,000 plus kills but that is probably true if we count it's first mission in July of 43 over the burning city of Hamburg. As I mentioned the two volumes on the unit will be worth waiting for ..... __________________ Rip it up !

06-21-2005, 07:13 PM	#10
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,150	Now these are just the kills for the Sturm FW's correct and not other units kills or other aircraft such as the Bf-109's, Bf-110's....etc. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

06-21-2005, 07:17 PM	#11
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	just FW 190-A-8/R2's and R-8 variants along with the standard A-8 that was flown in the units but very few. __________________ Rip it up !

06-21-2005, 07:37 PM	#12
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,150	Okay that is what I thought. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

10-26-2005, 04:00 PM	#13
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	from II.Sturm/JG 4 on the first two missions the Sturms took part in. thanks to friend Neil page for the translation. herr Chlond was a kind man, sadly passing away a couple of years ago. 5 kills to his credit. Uffz Kurt Scherer 6 (Sturm)./JG4 "...The sky was full of aeroplanes as far as the eye could see. P-51s dived down onto our close formation but our escorts fought them off. We were getting closer and closer to the bomber stream . The first tracers came flying past my ears. From then on everything happened very quickly. Our formation curved down right into the middle of the bomber stream in a textbook ( schulmässig gerissene Kurve ) manoeuvre. We were flying now in the bomber formation with B-17s in front and behind us. The deadly explosive shells from the first attack formation ( Angriffskeil ) of our Sturmmaschinen drilled into the B-17s that were growing ever bigger. I was amazed at the size of these huge machines, far bigger than I had imagined. But the fate of the four engined bomber growing ever bigger in my gunsight would be decided by my 3 cm cannon...." Uffz Herbert Chlond 5./JG4 ".. My machine was not serviceable on the 11 September and as our Kommandeur , Obstlt von Kornatzki couldn't fly this mission ( for what reason I do not know ) I flew in his aircraft. Although I didn't know it , his plane was fitted with a gun camera. I shot down a B-17 and this kill was recorded, being filmed from the moment I pressed the firing button up to the point where the B-17's rudder and tail fin broke away . I however knew nothing of this until a couple of days later when the film was replayed ... I can still remember how von Kornatzki ordered us that following our first victories we should have the front of the cowling of our aircraft ( Flugzeugnasen ) painted red to put fear into the enemy crews.." The following day, 12 September, saw another all out effort launched by the three Bomber Divisions of the 8th AF. As a result of the previous days action some fifty pilots of II/JG4 had landed back at airfields other than their own and the unit was ill prepared to meet another major incursion. It was to be a black day for II./JG4. von Kornatzki's machine, Fw 190A-8 'grüne 3' was seen to take hits from the B-17 he was attacking and dropping out of formation , he hit power lines whilst attempting a crash landing. The father of the Sturm idea was dead. His was a loss that was keenly felt by the young and inexperienced pilots to whom he had become a father figure ( Ersatzvater ) . The new Gruppenkommandeur was Major Gerhard Schroeder, formerly of KG51. __________________ Rip it up !

10-26-2005, 04:28 PM	#14
Gnomey "World Traveller" Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Royal Deeside/St Andrews, Scotland, UK Posts: 15,214	Interesting stuff Erich. __________________ "Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal, it is the Courage to Continue that Counts" Sir Winston Churchill "To him the People of the World Largely owe the Freedom and Liberties they Enjoy Today" Enscription on Hugh Dowding's (AOC Fighter Command 1936-40) statue in London WW2 Talk: A WW2 Discussion Forum My Photo Collections on Flickr

10-26-2005, 04:38 PM	#15
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,277	Erich, you mention 30 B-26s were shot down on Dec 23 1944. Do you have any other information about this? Since this was the time of the Battle of the Buldge, did these Sturm units fly support for this offensive, or kept back as a reserve against any 8th AF missions? __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

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