Swordfish and the Bismark

[Glider]

Just be glad the Germans didn't have them. Their AA was lethal already and can you imagine what would have happened to those tight daylight bomber formations.

Nightmare

[Seawitch]

Originally Posted by Negative Creep

If I remember rightly, didn't either the navigator or gunner one one of them have to hang out the aircraft and whack a faulty release mechanism loose? I love the story of the Swordfish, there is just something so British about it, how something that shouldn't have even been on the front line managed so much

I remember the person involved here being interviewed on a documentary.
I'm sure it was actually a case of him leaning over the side and banging the side of the aircraft to tell the pilot to drop the torpedo in what was a rough sea....the ideal time to lay a Torpedo then is when it will fall into the trough between two waves, and visibility wasn't too good, hence the antics to overcome.

Seawitch

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Seawitch

I remember the person involved here being interviewed on a documentary.
I'm sure it was actually a case of him leaning over the side and banging the side of the aircraft to tell the pilot to drop the torpedo in what was a rough sea....the ideal time to lay a Torpedo then is when it will fall into the trough between two waves, and visibility wasn't too good, hence the antics to overcome.

Seawitch

That was shown on the Air Combat series on the History Channel. I seen it as well.

[Glider]

Times hadn't changed much in the RN. When dropping a depth charge from a Lynx the crewman used to lean out and set the depth with a key in the back of the charge. There was a remote way of doing this but it sometimes failed so we used to stick to the old fashioned manual method.

I expect (hope) things have improved today but it goes to show what used to happen.

[gooba]

This is kinda OT, but i was just thinking about the Channel Dash, and more specifically, fighters versus ships.

Hypothetically, could a fighter score a lucky hit on a battleship?

No bombs, just cannons.

What would they have to hit to cripple a battleship/heavy cruiser? Any ideas?

er, flame away of course: I know next to nothing about ships, and I can't help wondering

[trackend]

IMO It may scratch the paint work a bit and if very luck damage a few optics in gunnery control or communications etc but as far as diminishing its fighting capabilities it would be minimal. I suppose it is possible to hit the bridge and reduce the command structure a tad but not cause the efficiency of the vessel to be effected a great deal no warship has all its eggs in one basket and redundancy is built into the design.

[delcyros]

Even the few unarmoured parts of her bridge superstructure had vertical walls made of 25mm St.52 and horizontal decks of 16-18mm St.52 in order to get her "blast proof" from firings of her own battery.
It in theory may be possible to punch through but it would require to get very close, indeed. Only superficial damage is thinkable.

[Njaco]

Wasn't Rudel's sinking of the Marat basically a one shot deal? In the early months of the war, Germany and Britain had what I would call a basketball game against each others warships. Stuff would hit then bounce off.

[delcyros]

Wasn't Rudel's sinking of the Marat basically a one shot deal? In the early months of the war, Germany and Britain had what I would call a basketball game against each others warships. Stuff would hit then bounce off.

Could You explain the second part of Your statement?
Regarding Marat, she was a vintage ww1 design without a proper armour deck (consisted of mainly mild steel plates, no real armour grade material for the armour deck), which could stop 500 Kg PC-bombs. Such a bomb could become a very nasty experience for old ships.

[Njaco]

What I meant was that in the early part of the war when planes attacked ships some of the bombs were'nt -for lack of a better word - made for attacking ships and there were many instances of hits but then they would bounce off or fall to explode. Like basketballs bouncing off the rim.

Case in Point: Sept 4, 1939 - Five Wellingtons attacked the pocket battleship "Admiral Scheer" and although 3 bombs hit the ship none exploded.

Sept. 24, 1939 - He 111s from KG 26 and KG 30 attacked the Home Fleet of HMS "Nelson","Rodney", "Hood" and "Renown" but did little damage as the SC 500 bombs failed to explode. One bomb hit the "Hood" and bounced off without exploding.

Bombs and tactics became better as the war moved on.

[CharlesRollinsWare]

Gents;

I'm thinking some of you need to re-evaluate your impression of the Swordfish missions flown against Bismarck, particularly those flown by the three TSR squadrons aboard HMS Ark Royal on 26 May 1941.

First, NO other nation operating carrier aircraft in May 1941 would have even considered flight operations possible on 26 May, let alone offensive combat operations! Force H was operating in Force 8 seas, with 50' waves (peak to trough) and 50 knot winds, and HMS Ark Royal was taking it green over her flight deck, 62 feet above her waterline, and the flight deck was swinging throug an arc of more than 50'. In fact, per RN operating doctrine, flight operations were not possible in such seas, and the concerted opinion off all involved from Commander Flying on down was that operatins with all metal monoplanes, specifically the Fulmar, were impossible.

The Swordfish themselves even fully loaded, required double tie downs and 15 plane handlers to keep them on deck. None the less, 53 sorties were flown with only three aircraft being placed "hors de combat" when, during landing, the aircraft mistimed the rise of the stern at the moment of landing and literally smashed into the flight deck.

Once in the air, the aircraft faced horrific winds and extremely limited visibility. However, skillfully using their few ASV-equipped Swordfish to Shadow Bismarch and to lead each strike group, the aircrew found the target, fixed it by successfully shadowing it for more than 12-hours, and lanching not one, but two strike groups, the first of which only attacked HMS Sheffield because they had been expressly briefed that Bismarck was the only ship in the target area and word never reached them that Sheffield had been dispatched to shadow.

I have interviwed three of the aircrew involved in the attack and all indicated that, in their entire flying career they never again flew in such conditions.

As for the strike by 825 Squadron on HMS Victorious on 24 May, the seas were foce 7, with 35' waves and 35+ knot winds, and the aircraft had to fly 120 miles into that wind to reach Bismarck and execute their attack. Further, on 24-25 May Victorious even used her Fulmar fighters as search aircraft even though most of the observers had no experience with open ocean navigation! Those search operations cost four ircraft (two of each type) and, ultimately five men of two crews, all because they were flying in 10/10ths cloud cover when the ship's homning becon out of service!

I would venture that, given the choice, few pilots would have chosen to fly in such conditions rather than attack a heavily protected target in decent flying weather instead!

Mark E. Horan

[Seawitch]

Originally Posted by CharlesRollinsWare

but two strike groups, the first of which only attacked HMS Sheffield because they had been expressly briefed that Bismarck was the only ship in the target area and word never reached them that Sheffield had been dispatched to shadow.

Is this not where they discovered the Torpedoes were exploding premature,thus not harming the Ship attacked but revealing a problem?

[Njaco]

I don't think anybody was desparaging the Stringbag piolts just more amazed that they went up. As you so well point out, it wern't easy!

[CharlesRollinsWare]

Seawitch;

Yes, the fourteen aircraft in the first striking force approached above the 10/10ths cloud cover and executed a "high-speed" diving squadron attack through the clouds by sections attacking from divergent points og the compass. The attack was actually brilliantly executed and worked exactly as planned with the aircraft breaking through the clouds at almost the release point and, thus, few of the aircrew, especially those in the first sections, had very long to observe their "target" before release. In the event, a number of the torpedoes, all of which were equiped with active magnetic exploders, exploded on contact with the sea or shortly after. Several aircraft noticed something was wrong and aborted or screwed up their release, though all the torpedoes ultimatley had to be jettisoned for the planes to be able to land as the Swordfish landing gear could not sustain the weight of the torpedo during landing.

Initally the admiral and his staff, and Ark's captain assumed that their proverbial bolt had been shot as almost all the crews had flown two missions that day already and and the weather conditions had, if anything, grown worse. However, the air crew, appalled by their perceived failure, insisted on making one more attempt. The failure of the torpedoes to act properly with the magnectic warheads active prompted the Air Staff recomendation, agrred to from the top, that only the contact exploder be active on the mission. The subsequent results were very satisfactory!

Mark

[trackend]

Hi mark
As you have seem to have an interest in the Swordfish (as do I) I was wondered in your travels if you have had any luck in finding out the tonnage kills I have been in contact with the FAAM in Yoevilton without much success and although locating specific kills in their anti submarine/warship role is not that hard. getting a more definitive results on merchant tonnages has proven quite difficult gleaning any information. I have found claims ranging from 200,000 to 500,000 + tonnes (this excludes unverifiable mine laying of course) I just wondered if you had researched this at all.

Cheers Lee