The Ta-152.... The Best High Altitude Fighter?????

[Gemhorse]

IMO the Ta152 was a superlative aircraft designed to tackle High-altitude enemy aircraft....

One aircraft that consistently flew high-altitude missions over Germany from 1942 throughout the War, was the PR Mosquitos, and often they thwarted multiple attacks by Luftwaffe fighters, to bring the photos home. They also built a variant specifically to deal with the Ju86P, back in 1942, but the Luftwaffe cancelled their missions before this Mossie variant could be used...and as mentioned, the other successful PR variant was the Spitfire, and a model of this was also developed for use against the Ju86P's...

I read with interest about all these ''hairy-assed fighters'' that would n' could bring down the Ta-152, but I for one think it was quite a tribute to Tank's inventiveness to come up with this aircraft, albeit rather late in the fray, to try and stem the torrent of Allied aircraft pummeling Germany. I for one had fallen under the spell of Green's books on Luftwaffe aircraft, but the fact remains, they built some exceptionally innovative aircraft, I've always found Capt. Eric Brown's reports most informative about them, and the mention of the Ar-335 and Ar-234 indicate a continuing potential to inflict damage to the invading air armada, if they hadn't become starved of fuel and seasoned pilots. Considering that the Lufwaffe's complement of defensive aircraft in the ETO was always limited, they did a remarkable job right to the bitter end with what they had, and the USAAF bombers at great cost to themselves managed to dispatch 3000-odd enemy fighters during the overall offensive...

Some believe the Ta-152 was developed for action against the B-29, one of which deliberately came to the UK, via it's trip eastward, to entice enemy intelligence into believing they were indeed scheduled for service in the ETO...which would have been interesting, considering the problems the B-29 was plagued with concerning engine-overheating while trying to achieve it's claimed altitude...

Ironically, the Mosquito continued it's trips in and out of Germany throughout the War, with negligable losses, compared to other aircraft....
For example, the 'Battle of Berlin', which was fought exclusively with Lancasters, supported by Mosquitos, of the 2,034 sorties the bomber- Mossies flew, they only lost 10 aircraft...They had help from 100 Group Intruder Mosquitos keeping watch on Luftwaffe airfields, while 'Serrate' Mosquitos stalked around the bomber streams for enemy nightfighters...

The Mosquito was always a thorn the Luftwaffe never quite effectively dealt with, day or night, by fighters or flak....
At high-altitude, Fw-190's had alot of difficulty bagging them, great l'il fighters they were, so it seems logical that the 'Dora' and Ta-152 development may have had 'Mosquito-swatting' in mind, as well as the bomber-hordes with their ever-increasing number of escorts, relentlessly coming over....

My ''what-if'' aircraft to tackle the TA-152 would be the DH Hornet, which was flying in 1944, and if adapted for high-altitude combat may have been an interesting contender.....

Gemhorse

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Erich

sorry but the Luftwaffe ceased to exist in May of 45 or should we say by March of 45 when Me 262's were about the only things that faced the RAF and US, the Reich defence depleted since 9/10ths of the gruppen went to the Ost front for the last battles for Berlin.

Although my response to you should be put into a whole different thread, I want to correct a misconception you have about the Luftwaffe.

The statistics dont bear out your quote. The Luftwaffe was around to the end, but its capacity to fight with any effect was long over by summer of 1944.

Heres some facts:
Sept 1944 showed the 8th AF flew 16 missions into German air space (several other missions that month were for support of Market-Garden) with an average of 1000 bombers per mission. 222 bombers were lost. Out of those 16 missions, 7 were flown with no Luftwaffe intercepts with 40 bomber lost due to flak.
The mission on Sept 11 was a major effort against several oil targets, with the vaunted Luftwaffe up in force. Out of 1131 bombers, only 40 bombers were lost, with at least 1/2 due to flak. Figure it out, 20 bombers lost out of 1131. So much for the Luftwaffe existing.

Oct 1944 was even worse for the Luftwaff. 18 bomber missions (with an average of 1200 bombers per mission) with only 121 loss's. In the whole month of October, the Luftwaffe flew only two (thats right, two) intercepts. The -17's and -24's lost 59 planes those two missions, with at least 1/2 due to flak.
Oct 7th was when the Germans had their best success. 1422 bombers attacked several oil installations, with flak bringing down at least 1/2 of the 40 planes shot down.

As the war progressed the final several months, fewer and fewer bombers were being lost to the fighters. The Luftwaffe had simply ceased to exist.

I was also interested in seeing the rockets mounted on the wings of that fighter. I wonder the performance degredation the plane had with so much stuff under the wings. I'd say it would have lost quite some top end speed and maneuverability.

[evangilder]

Syscom, just an FYI, but Erich is probably the most well-versed individual on this board when it comes to the Luftwaffe. I would be very careful saying that he has a "misconception" about the Luftwaffe.

The reason less bombers were being lost is because there were more fighter escorts for the bomber formations. The Luftwaffe was still giving our guys hell right up until the end.

[Gemhorse]

What you may have found to be the case, was on 1st Jan. 1945, the Luftwaffe initiated Operation 'Bodenplatte', an early morning attack on Allied European airfields, involving about a 1,000 fighters....They may have been husbanding their depleting resources for this operation, which had mixed results for them [I don't have the figures on hand], but they were much reduced after that, but the Nachtjagd was still very active and deadly to the end.....

Gemhorse

[syscom3]

Facts are facts. In the grand picture, they werent giving anyone problems after the summer of 1944. So you say they put up 1000 planes on a single day? Wow, Im impressed. And within a week or so, all those planes were gone. On the other hand, on a daily basis, week after week, The 8th was putting up 2000 bombers and 800 fighters, the 9th AF several hundred more, the Brits had thousands more. And Im not counting the 12th and 15th AF, nor the Soviets. Just look at that stat for October.... TWO intercepts the whole month. Thats the sign of an air force that was beaten and on the ropes.

Plain and simple, the Luftwaffe had ceased to exist. Just like a gopher in a field, they could pop out their head and make their presence known, but alter the outcome of the fight? Hardly.

For those that want to see a Beautifull print of Gunter Rall flying his FW190 high in the stratosphere, check this link out. I bought it 1988! I have it hanging right next to my print of a flight of 4th FG Mustangs!

http://www.oliversart.com/acatalog/swansong.htm

[Erich]

big friking deal about to engagements in October 44 with the Sturm Fw's dealing out the damges............

September 11, 12, 27, ( Kassel castastrophe when the 445th bg nearly gets wiped out, 30 B-24's shot down ) and the 28th all killing missions of 4 engine heavies primarily by SturmFw's

October I will agree 2 missions but there were others that month although lightly defended.

November 2nd a bomber kick in the balls.

November 21st where one B-17 bomb group gets its stuff kicked out of it by my cousins JG ~ JG 301

November 26th my cousins JG attacks again with 6 others in one of the fiercest aerial battles of the war for the Oil refinery of Misberg.

December if you are familiar with the Ardenne battles: B-26's get their rear almost annihilated and on another mission in late December one of the top US leaders is killed going down with his B-17 while his unit loses another 9-10 B-17's in the process before they even get into Germany.

Look you say say the losses were limited but go ask a US bomber group veteran about those mission that he flew and he will tell you the Luftwaffe was still up giving it to them even when US P-51's were about.
I've got the interviews from both sides the last 36 years.............March 18th 1945, III./JG 7 unleasehes what will probably change aerial combat. R4M's. so confused are the US bomber reports the kills by the jets are given as Flak // on it goes

[Erich]

sys:

I had to go back and do a double take of your 16 missions of September 44.

11 September 1944, 14 grouppen in the air, JG 4's first engagement as a Gefechtsverband with Sturmgruppe and III./JG 4 as a high cover: result was over 20 plus B-17's shot down.
IV.Sturm/JG 3 takes on another bomb group and shoots down 13 B-17's

12 September 1944, 13 gruppen in the air. IV.Sturm/JG 3 shoot down 7 B-17's, JG 300 as a whole shoot down 10 B-17's. JG 4 shoots down 11 B-17's with another 9 shot out of formation. I./JG 11 shoot down 6 P-51's. Bf 109G equipped III./JG 53 claim 4 B-17's and a P-51.

27 September 44 over Kassel that I mentioned, Iv.Sturm shoots down 18 of the B-24's confirmed without loss, the rest by SturmFw's of JG 300 and JG 4 // the largest single loss by any one US bomb group during the war (Looks like the Luftwaffe was active to me)

28 September 1944 IV.Sturm/JG 3 shjoot down 10-11 B-17's. Jg 300 as a whole shoot down 10 B-17's, II.Sturm/JG 4 claim 4 and 5 HSS but are given credit for 2 B-17's.

Go check our old web-pages : Sturmgruppen missions 1944, and by the way I am helping write the book on the Kassel misison 27 Sept. 44 with the 445th bg vets.

As to your view on the 1000 plane raids I will totally agree it just didn't happen anymore but the attacks after June of 44's end were more concentrated with indeed much more firepower and the term Blitzschlact became a household word.........

E ~

[syscom3]

From your statistics, it looks like the Luftwaffe was effective only in four instances, which is only 1/2 the story. (Note, I dont count cat-e loss's in my numbers as they usually were quite low in numbers, and it is impossible to quantify German loss's due to similar damage)

Sept 11 40 bombers lost out of 1131, 17 US fighters lost, 115 German planes lost.

Sept 12 35 bombers lost out of 888, 12 US fighters lost, 54 German planes lost.

Sept 11 28 bombers lost out of 1192, 2 US fighters lost, 31 German planes lost. This was the 445th BG debacle. 25 lost with three Cat E loss's. However, the Germans lost 25 that same intercept, with one 376th FG pilot becoming an ace-in-a-day.

Sept 11 34 bombers lost out of 1049, 7 US fighters lost, 26 German planes lost.

End result, a couple German groups got into the thick of things, did a good job, and then took high loss's in return. Not all German loss's ended up in the loss of the pilot due to death or injury, but at that stage of the war, the Luftwaffe was gettingsmaller and smaller in the numbers of pilots. And it was reflected in the fewer and fewer missions they were sent up to fight.

Later today, I will cover Nov/Dec time periods to further prove my point. The Luftwaffe didnt exist after Summer 1944.

[Erich]

go do sosme more research. you in your haste and like mine have put wrong dates down. Sept. 11 was not the 445th destruction. It is 30 bomber confirmed as I have the info stragiht from 445th bg vets and the historian. there ws no 376th fg in the air on the 28th it was the 361st yellowjackets and Jg 3 was out of the area

your facts are incorrect on losses from the US point of view besides.

The luftwaffe did exist but not in the great numbers thrown at the US heavies in 43 or early 44.

You obviously are not reading the two previous postings very well........go ask some US bg vets if the Luftwaffe did not exist in the summer of 44 till February 45.

7-7-44 56 US heavies were lost confirmed by US sources during the Blitzschlacht über Oschersleben. The US 492nd almost ceased to exist as well the 15th AF flew to far north into Germany and received the second round of attacks, something the 15hth AF histories do not include or should I say are very reluctant to share information on. I have more if you would like.

Are you so concerned about numbers of Luftwaffe a/c in the air that it would make that much difference to US losses overall ? .......... it would appear so to me and the other board members.

You mention a few Luftwaffe units only but it is quite simple and true the SturmFw gruppen, all three of them made a huge impression especially upon 8th AF command that US P-51 Mustang escorts were increased to drive the Fw heavies off if at all possible

[syscom3]

Oops, my mistake. The last two dates should have been Sept 27th and 28th.

Sorry about that!!!!

[Erich]

Ok sys lets have the mods move our debate and I would rather call it that than argument to the Reichsverteidigung thread in Aviation, so if someone would plese be kind enough to do so. I have the German losses confirmed according to source log books from the JG's as well as BA/MA in Freiburg, Berlin and Aachen. these of course will not agree with US standings, the same of course will be told of RAF/German NF losses and claims.

v/r E ~

[Erich]

27th September 1944.

German losses were as follows.

18 Killed
8 wounded
32 a/c shot down 60-100%
0 a/c under 60% damage

7 October 1944

11 killed
4 wounded
21 a/c shot down with 60-100%
6 a/c under 60% damage

21 of November 1944

42 killed
22 wounded
83 a/c shot down with 60-100% damage
18 a/c with under 60 %

13 gruppen attack B-17 and P-51 units. Jg 301 is only given claims for 5 B-17's and 2 P-51's; according to the bomb group historian of the 398th bg. one squadron the 603rd loses 7 in a fiercest several second attack out of the clouds, the total lost was 15 B-17's

just a few notes....

[Lunatic]

Originally Posted by Udet

...

Now, the P-51 H? It did not even fly in Europe Jabber.

Now, let´s play a game and pretend the P-51 H has the chance of flying against the Luftwaffe. Also add the P-47 N, M (O,P,Q,R and Y reaching 12,900 hp) who hardly saw any action, if any, in Europe as well.

(Note nobody suggested the Ta-152 was a perfect machine. No plane made a perfect machine during the war)

Why is it that the allied boys -not you Jabber- only see the allies bringing on powerful might toys to the front against the Luftwaffe?

In our game, if the P-51 H and all the new Jugs fly in numbers against the Luftwaffe is due to the fundamental reason that the war got protracted.

A protracted war means the allies -even if they will win in the end- have not yet put Germany down on its knees; so any protraction of the war also plays in favor of Germany.

The war is protracted fundamentally due to German actions, and not for the actions (or omissions) of the allies who were hard pressed to finish the war.

Perhaps. But your argument is had the Ta152 been produced in significant numbers, rather than the 60 or so that were actually fielded. So the counter argument that the P-51H might have been fielded to counter it is reasonable. More P-51H's existed on VE day than Ta152's, the reason they were not deployed was because they required different logistics support (parts) and it was deemend the P-51D and P-47's were sufficient to defeat Germany in 1945. Had significant numbers of TA's been in the air over Germany this decision would probably have been different. Likewise, the P-38K would likely have been produced (at the cost of about 10 days P-38L production). The P-47N would probably have been deployed in force to Europe (a few were sent to Europe) as well.

What you seem to wish to argue is the merits of the TA vs. the P-51D, P-47D, and Spitfire XIV. And against these foe's it did have some significant advantages, but we cannot really assess its real relative performance as it did not see enough action to really know. The TA had a huge advantage in that it was an unknown quantity, giving its pilot an edge over an adversary that would have been lost had the TA been more common. As for its turn rate, the only combat account of worth shows the TA barely out-turning a Tempest on the deck. The Spitfire and P-51 both significantly out-turned the Tempest, and so assumedly they would out-turn the TA.

Another, bigger issue, was servicablity. The TA was a plane racked with innovations, most of them complicated and requiring expert maintanence. IIRC never were more than about 1/2 to 1/3 of the available TA152 airframes airworthy. With the P-51's and P-47's typically 85% or more were ready for combat.

The TA was also very expensive to build. The P-51 by comparision, was relatively cheap to build. This combine with the higher servicabilty of the P-51 means that even had equal numbers been available on both sides, the P-51 would still have enjoyed a huge numerical advantage in the air.

Originally Posted by Udet

As Erich correctly once put it, it is silly to debate if the 152 was conceived to deal with the dreaded B-29. By the way, no matter how sophisticated the B-29 might have been, had it seen action in numbers over Europe its fate would have been no different to that suffered by the B-24s and B-17s.

The Ta-152 (quoting Erich) was designed to deal with anything that flew over the Reich, as simple as that. The yak is frequently depicted as the "best low altitude fighter" of the wat. Whatever. The Ta-152 proved the Yaks were no match against it, at very low altitudes, suffering no losses against the VVS.

Again, there is far too little data to make such an evalunation. Remember, over 90% of the pilots who survived being shot down in WWII stated they never saw the plane that shot them down or if they did it was not until after they were taking hits. Given the huge numbers of Yaks, often flown by inexperianced pilots, and in 1945 often flying ground support missions, and the very high level of experiance amoung the TA pilots and the hunter nature of their missions, it is not suprising that no TA's were shot down by Yaks. There were so few such engagements no real conclusions can be drawn. By 1945 the Soviets saw so few German fighters that they were probably easily caught by surprise in these very few instances - and of course they knew nothing about how to counter a TA, where the TA pilots knew exactly what to expect from a Yak.

=S=

Lunatic

(one of my rare opportunities to post)

[Erich]

Lune :

Remember what I have said in previous posting about the Gemrna day fighter force in 1945.

Over 1/2 of the Reich defence left at Janaury 45's end to go to the Ost front for the final battles over and near Berlin, and in fact several NJG were ordered to perfomr ground attack during the night and day agasint Soviet build-ups. there were plenty of a/c on hand to take on the Soviets and many victories were claimed, but end result was the fuel shortage and the reduction of the Reich due to the soviet steamroller on the ground, airfields were changed almsot every other day if not weekly come February onward.

From what we can see of the Ta 152 pilots although some of them highly experienced their own careers by admission was on the western front with practically no experience fighting Soviet flyers. could the Soviet pilots due to their mid level tactics been easier prey ? ............ possibly

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Wow good arguments here guys. It is goign to take me a while to sift through all this stuff. Damn Vacations you miss a lot!