The Ta-152.... The Best High Altitude Fighter?????

[Udet]

That the allied pilots did not know of the Ta 152 means virtually nothing regarding the quality of the German fighter. Furthermore, the Ta 152 combat record coudl be called everything but dubious.

The Ta 152 made more than a ferry flight seeing the pilot leaving the cockpit reporting the plane is a very cool toy.

The Ta152 went through extensive testing and it was proved it made a superb aircraft. Not a perfect plane, though. No aircraft, from any of the combatant nations, was perfect. Yet, the Ta 152 was a superb machine, superior in many departments to the P-51, the latest Spitfire and the P-47.

Conceived as an extremely high altitude fighter with a service ceiling of nearly 16 kilometers -well beyond the reach of the P-51- it did not see service for the role it was originally intended.

Right, only a few dozens of Ta 152´s saw combat. Right, the period of combat exposure of those few dozens was indeed brief.

Such arguments, while being true, can never be enough to tell the Ta 152´s real capabilities remain uncertain. The extreme bureaucracy and politics in the Reich ensured the Ta 152 did not reach the fronts in important numbers. Still, the brutal fuel shortages would certainly ground most of the new fighters.

Even with the few dozens which saw combat service, the Ta 152 left recorded and confirmed kills over Yaks and Tupolevs in the final weeks of the war.

The Ta 152, intended for very high altitude combat, scored kills against the Yak-9´s, one of the very best low altitude fighters of the war (stab JG/301). The soviet pilots were not precisely of top quality, yet the late Yak fighter was excellent.

There was a confirmed and recorded kill of Willi Reschke flying a Ta152 over a Tempest in the final days of the war as well.

A brief period of time in service, only a few dozens of them Ta152´s, yet the capabilities and quality of the German fighter were proved.

Read Griehl & Dressel for further input.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Ta-152 was considered to be superior to anything the allies had at high alltitude. At low alltitudes obviously not, but it was a great aircraft and was very capable.

[Erich]

Stab/JG 301 kills are all confirmed nothing is dubious.........

it was the master of high altitude and even at mid range it could perform as seen in other threads of this one.

Few numbers indeed but it was the mode of the future if there had been a future for the Luftwaffe

lets not go back into the what if please. No Ta 152's were downed in combat.

E

[Udet]

Erich who did you direct that to?

[Erich]

everyone because I feel some will start pulling out that it was not any good because of few numbers and that it never was in combat with P-51 escorts..................oh well. Dang, I wish J. Crandall would get his book out on JG 301 and then the proof will be in print for everyone to see not just my opinions.

v/r E →

[KraziKanuK]

Nothing strange about wing 'twist' on the 152 as most a/c had some twist. The 190A had 2 degrees difference between root and tip, for example.

K. Tank did outrun some P-51s at low attitude in a 152.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The 152 was the best high alltitude aircraft at the time and it could have been developed even more. Tank had something going with this aircraft, and yes I agree with you Erich, it is bound to happen real soon as soon as some one reads what was written.

[Udet]

Erich:

Well i did say quite the same things you did.

As i´ve said elsewhere, just like any other plane of the war, the Ta152 was not a perfect machine, but even in the small numbers that saw combat, the worth of that superb design was proved.

Others come up with silly arguments like "it never saw the kind of service for which it was originally conceived" (meaning extremely high altitude combat)...so what???????????

At medium and low altitudes the Ta 152s enganged soviet Yaks and gave them a clean pounding. The VVS pilots were not precisely of top quality, still the Yaks are considered as some of the very best low altitude fighters of the war. So the Ta 152, while "conceived" as extremely high altitude interceptor, had superb medium and low altitude performance as well.

From Reschke`s records, also the Tempest got engaged at extremely low altitude and the Ta152 came out as victor.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I would not say that the Ta-152 had the best performance at low and medium alltitude but it would deffinatly have given the best allied aircraft a run for its money. At high alltitudes it was superior to anything. Having said all of this, it was one of the best aircraft produced of the war and who cares if it did not see much combat, combat does not determin the qualities of an aircraft or how good an aircraft is.

[cheddar cheese]

Well said Adler.

Udet, I was not aware that Ta-152's ever encountered Yaks, let alone shoot them down

[Udet]

Provolone...sorry...Cheddar cheese:

Yep, it is absolutely confirmed: the Stabstaffel and I. Gruppe of JG301, which received Ta152s for combat operations engaged Yaks near Berlin in the very last weeks and days of world war II. (IIRC, also II./JG301 had Ta152s, do not have the papers at hand though)

The Yaks were outflown in combat with the Ta152 at very low altitude dogfights, and several victories were confirmed.

So that is why I say even if the Ta152s were conceived for extremely high altitude combat, flying in the opposite hemisphere of the graphic -at very low altitude-, its manouverability and handling were superb.

Finally, even if the following remark will certainly be the "final word", as Erich commented, not one Ta152 got lost in combat with the enemy.

[Erich]

correction Udet. In January 1945 III./JG 301 was equipped with the TA 152 in three of the four stafflen as well as their heavier A-8/R2's and some A-9's. The unit decided to terminate the Ta 152 and all surviving Ta's went to the Stab of the geschwader staff and pilots from III. gruppe that had flown the 152 were ordered to transfer to the Stabstaffel along with several other knowledgeable pilots.

I. and II. gruppe only flew the A-9 during 1945.

see you guys Monday sometime......off to the mountains and what little snow is left.....

Gruß

[Udet]

Erich:

Have a nice weekend, save some snow for the fridge!

Thanks for the remarks. I kind of knew that, i simply did not had the accurate info at hand. It is clear most of the Ta152´s victories over soviet fighters were achieved by pilots of the stab/JG301 (i.e. Reschke, Loos, etc.)

Still, I could say "i was sure" II./JG301 had Ta152s alloted to one of its staffeln, but well, perhaps alzheimer played a trick on me.

Originally Posted by KraziKanuK

Nothing strange about wing 'twist' on the 152 as most a/c had some twist. The 190A had 2 degrees difference between root and tip, for example.

K. Tank did outrun some P-51s at low attitude in a 152.

The Ta had a lot of twist to its wing, and it was spread across a wide area not at a joint.

Tank claimed to have outrun some P-51's but there is no confirmation of this. It is unclear if the P-51's actually pursued him or not - they may well have broken off fearing they were being lured into an AA trap which was a common German tactic.

Also, it is quite possible he was simply lying, wanting to claim he'd finally built something that could outrun the P-51. He was under quite a bit of pressure to do so. The account is very dubious as the P-51's would already have had speed and there is no way the TA would have been able to accelerate fast enough to overcome that.

As a general rule you never take an engineer/designer's unconfirmed word concerning the competitive performance of their creation - too much pride and ego is involved.

=S=

Lunatic

[evangilder]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

As a general rule you never take an engineer/designer's unconfirmed word concerning the competitive performance of their creation - too much pride and ego is involved.Lunatic

Very true, but the same could also be said from fighter pilots. You have to be careful taking any one person's word without verification.