The Ta-152.... The Best High Altitude Fighter?????

[Civettone]

Soren, we are in agreement. I'm a bit confused as to why you're discussing this with me.
I believe my statement is clear cut. I say the allied pilots would have noticed the Ta 152 and that they would have identified it as a Dora with longer wings.
You said it had more differences than the wings and then I replied that the allied pilots wouldn't have noticed this right away. Your argument that the pilots rarely see the profile of the enemy plane only confirms my argument.

Imagine that you had never heard of the Ta 152 but would recognize a Fw 190D. Now imagine you get to take a look at a 3D model of the Ta 152H during a split second. What would you think you had seen? A Dora with longer wings...

Kris

[Soren]

Like you guys said, you'd have to be close to see all the differences but by the same token you'd have to be close to see all the resembling features as-well. At relatively long range, which is where you will most likely see each other, the big difference in wing design alone is more than enough to make sure you won't ID it as a Dora - cause the only thing that stands out at a distance is the "big differences".

For example lets say you're a pilot who has never seen a Ta-152 before and you suddenly spot one passing by you like on my avatar, would you ID that as a Dora ? While an experienced pilot might see some resemblance the long slender wing, longer fuselage and different cockpit position would certainly put great doubt in his mind as to exactly what a/c he's dealing with here.

[Erich]

c'mon you guys you are all speculating with the what if the
allied pilot saw this a/c and then (?) what it was. A long nose Fw was the result and then then the P-51 pilots mixed the Dora and the Anton up in combat anyway when it was a battle for literally seconds or diving down on the deck with another close on the tail

[Civettone]

I disagree Soren and for the following reason. An Allied fighter in early 1945 is not ignorant. He has a limited number of fighter aircraft to recognize: besides the Fw 190D, the Bf 109, Me 163, Me 262 or Fw 190A.

When fighter pilots engaged or shot down enemy fighters, they usually identified them correctly. So it's not like they wouldn't have any idea on what to see in the skies. As soon as they would see an aircraft like in your avatar they would limit it down to a Fw 190D with longer wings, as the tail and long nose were too distinctive for it to be a Bf 109 or Fw 190A. That would only leave one more option open and that's the Dora.

Kris

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Civettone

I disagree Soren and for the following reason. An Allied fighter in early 1945 is not ignorant. He has a limited number of fighter aircraft to recognize: besides the Fw 190D, the Bf 109, Me 163, Me 262 or Fw 190A.
Kris

Allied fighter pilots were also identifying He 112s and Me 209 in combat as well. I'm telling you from experience - Identifying aircraft that have a similar layout is not easily done. Throw in the chaos and confusion of air combat and it's that much more confusing - I think gun cameras helped with most of the identification confusion.

Attached is a famous photo of P-47 ace Robert Johnson - he has 3 "Me 209" kills on his aircraft....

[Civettone]

I'm quite aware of those He 113s and others. I said they usually identified them correctly. Don't see any discussion in that.

Kris

[Soren]

Civettone what you seem not to understand is that in reality you will in the far majority of cases not see your opponent as clearly as a picture. I bet a pilot wouldn't have a chance of noting any similarity between the Dora and Ta-152 if he sees the same profile as my avatar pass by his windscreen at 500 + km/h - all he will ID is a single engined a/c with a long slender wing.

At speed similar features such as the elevators simply arent noticed, not only because elevators tend to look the same on many a/c, esp. at a distance, but the heat of battle tends to blur things.


FLYBOYJ,

The Italian fighters, the Macchi C205 and Fiat G-55's, were also frequently mistaken as Bf-109's.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Civettone

I'm quite aware of those He 113s and others. I said they usually identified them correctly. Don't see any discussion in that.

Kris

If they were identified so well, why did Allied intelligence believe there were squadrons of He 113s, Me 209s and He 280s deployed? Simple - aircraft recognition as you put it is not as easy as you think, especially in combat.

I read somewhere during the Vietnam conflict, some F4 drivers swear they were attacked by F-86s!!!!

Originally Posted by Soren

FLYBOYJ,

The Italian fighters, the Macchi C205 and Fiat G-55's, were also frequently mistaken as Bf-109's.

Yep!!!

[Civettone]

You're missing my point. The vast majority of fighters were correctly identified. What you are given are exceptions to that rule. I thought that would have been clear as I had already repeated my original phrase with the 'almost' in italic.

Soren, the identification of this plane would happen through elimination. It was a single piston engined fighter, so only the Fw 190A, D and Bf 109 remain. Even seen in a flash one can easily single out the Fw 190D. Of course one would doubt because the wings wouldn't match. So the pilot would report the plane as "similar to the Fw 190D but with longer wings".

Kris

[Jank]

As FLYBOY has indicated, it is often far from clear. There are a number of instances where P-47's were mistaken for Fw-190's.

[HealzDevo]

Too true, this was especially true with the B-17 crews that decided that the Spitfires were enemy aircraft and started blasting away at them for Bf-109s... Also Hurricanes could be confused with Bf-109s and the Blenheim was confused for a Heinkel He-111. I know they were saying on Wikepedia that a RAF Hurricane was shot down by a RAF Spitfire in the Battle Of Barking Creek in a case of mistaken identity leading to the first British pilot fatality of WW2.

[Civettone]

Fine, as long as you agree that the identification was usually correct. And now I'll stop repeating myself before I get schyzo.

Kris

[Erich]

back onto this a most interesting and discussed thread. A recent letter to me>

Will Reschke flew in III. and Geschwader Stab/JG 301 white 1 and 2, green 1 and 9, Black 13

In III./JG 301 there were initially 35 Ta 152H's later down to 15 for combat by März of 45.

Geschwader stab had a steady 6 Ta 152H's in the staff unit.

Willi flew on 14 April 1945 when he downed a Tempest, flying a Ta 152H-1, white 1

more later ......

[Lucky13]

Erich...what kind of machine was Black 13?

[lesofprimus]

Erich...what kind of machine was Black 13?

It was a Ta 152H-1