The Ta-152.... The Best High Altitude Fighter?????

[Lucky13]

Erich, what kind of aircraft did the JG301 and 302 operate during its operational life? What's their final number in aerial victories?

[Erich]

JG 302 : Bf 109 and Fw 190A

JG 301 first flew the Bf 109G, then in September they were completelyrefitted with Fw 190A-8, A-8/R2's and also A-9, A-9/R11, finally III./JG 301 had up to 35 Ta 152H reduced down to 15. Geschwader Stab flew the Ta 152H as well 6-8 of them

[Lucky13]

Cheers Erich, much appreciated!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by AV8

Now I ask a question that may SEEM insulting, but is NOT intended to be so. Please don't take this wrong, but how do you know this person you spoke with actually did serve in JG 301? Does he show up on an official roster? Is the name common and might he be another person of the same name?

I'm not saying it is so, I was just curious as to the credibility of the claim. Seems like everyone's "proof" is something someone said who claims to have been there. There's at least one "ace" here in the U.S.A. who made the airshow circuit and claimed to have served with the Flying Tigers, but the REAL Flying Tigers, like Bob Scott, had never heard of him or seen him before.

The reason I asked for numbers is because there are at LEAST 4 or 5 sources that state the Ta 152H models were withdrawn from service by the end of April 1945. So ... someone claimg to know differently naturally causes me to ask about it.

Because his name is Willi Reschke. There are photos of him with a Ta 152 and he even has a confirmed killed in a 152 against a Tempest at very low alltitude on April 14, 1945.

He is still alive today and lives several hours away from me. I have written him a letter with many questions regarding the Ta 152 but due to certian reasons he has not been able to get back to me but he will as soon as possible.

I also have recieved some video and interesting letters about him from a personal aquaintance of his as well (Erich you know who I am talking about).

[AV8]

Thanks for the info guys. I WILL check the old posts as I get time.

Just for future reference, I really don't want to "tick" anyone off on purpose. I mostly ask questions that arise as I read the posts. When I see some sarcasm, especially a member telling another member to "shut up and stay away from things they don't know about," it is human nature to respond in kind ... I'll try to control it.

Meanwhile, I have seen some posts in here by purported "experts" that make claims about aircraft and aerodynamics that are just wrong. I'll feel free to enter these discussions in the future, but there's no point in hashing over EVERYTHING that is questionable, espeically in the past. Since I'm new here, I'll start from here and not go back to quibble, even if queried about it.



It might be worthwhile to compile the data in aircraft-specific posts into a sticky subject on each aicraft, but that's a lot of work for someone to do. Maybe in a Compiled Data sub forum.

Since we have people interested in individual units of various air forces, it might be worthwhile to do the same for the various aviation squadrons, units, wings, JGs, etc. Again, a lot of work. Maybe in a sub forum called Compiled Aircraft Unit Data or words to that effect.

The thing is, the very people who are interested in these aircraft, air forces, and air force units could do the work a little at a time and submit the collected subject to the moderators for approval with the words "Bf 109 Collected Data" or words to that effect in the title. If the moderators read and concur, the text could be added easily by the moderator with a simple copy and paste.

For the interested parties, it might be acceptable work. For the forum, it might be a good thing or at least a useful thing since the collected data could be easily accessed without reading hundreds of old posts, especially if the subject didn't move in the menu when they are read or added to. The subjects could be alphabetized by aircraft manufacturer, with a folder called "Messerschmitt" and "Bf / Me 109", Me 262", etc. filed under Messerschmitt ... or by Air Force and Unit.

Just a thought ...

I'd could collect data on one subject as a start, assuming anyone is interested ... it may be preferable to the owner / moderators to keep the status quo, and I'd understand that, too.

By and large, a nice forum with good information.

[Erich]

Av8:

I go back to my original question with you. what sources written or otherwise state the Ta 152H was removed from service ??

E ~

[Linda Alice Dewey]

Erich, Hi! Just a note on the stats from the Kassel Mission of 27 Sept 1944:

25 planes went down within a 15 mile radius in central Germany, another 4 crash landed--2 in Belgium and 2 in France. My father's plane which landed in Manston was re-classified recently as we heard from Maxwell Field that it did fly again. So we have a total of 29 445th B-24's crashed, 1 emergency landing at Manston (Dad's) 1 crashed at Tibenham and 4 of the original 35 (38 were sent out but 3 turned back) made it back safely. A bad day for the 8th AF.

[drgondog]

Linda - September 27 bloodbath was an example of very skillfull Luftwaffe Controllers and Spotters detecting both gaps in formations between each wing and gaps in Escort - then rallying a strike force to that area.

Despite hundreds of P-51s and P-47s escorting all three BD that day only the fighters of the 65FW (and only the 4th, 355th and 361st) were in a position to intervene. The 445th somehow separated from the 491st and 489th BG and running south (as I recall) of the main track and all three Fighter wings were with the latter two Wings further north.

The JG4 Sturmgruppe hit the 445th, the 361st and 4th FG were closest and engaged while the 355th sent one squadron south and kept two more to cover 491st and 489th. In all there were only 58 Mustangs from the three groups as effectives but still managed to shoot down 26 for the loss of 1 (4fg - 0, 355-0, 361 -1 ). Didn't do the 445 any good but illustrated how the LW could have overwhelming force in a region in space that had many US fighters within 20 miles.

Didn't do JG4 much good either but they killed a lot more USAAF airmen than they lost this day.

The 'poster child' missions illustrating the consequences of losing connection with the other wings include April 29, July 7, Sept 27 and Nov 26 missions - all almost identical models - and consequences of LW achieving local air superiority.

Eric probably has more deatils on this mission from fighter perspective than I do.. as well as Nov 26 mission in which the 445th BG was hurt also (nothing like Kassel) but the 491st was really hurt.

Regards,

Bill Marshall

[Erich]

hey Linda good to see ya hear. Actually I got the 30 count from your dad some years ago by phone as well as e-mail along with another one of the survivors, after re-reading the mission reports I agree with your statements, the thing was during the battle we might as well call it 30 as that number did not come back to
England in 1 piece.

IV.Sturm/JG 3 attacked first shooting down 18 Libs while JG 300 and JG 4 came in just seconds after, possible a couple of minutes depending on what source you use for reading. The 361st hit JG 4 and JG 300 hard, while JG 3 Sturms got in one fast attack and then dove for the deck but getting 6 of their Sturms hiot by return B-24 .50's. confusion still exists as JG 300 members state that they were first inline but also that other JG 300 members stated that during the attack another Sturmgruppe wasahead of them going through the B-24's and pieces of a/c were drifting down and they were flying through the carnage.

In any case it was one of the most horrific aerial engagements of the war

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

So using that logic the F-22 and F-35 can not be considered the best fighter aircraft today because they have no war record?

The people who believe that it was the best is not based off war record, but rather based off of performance and handling. They use charts, and pilot accounts on performance and handling (both axis and post war allied accounts).

War record does not make an aircraft good or not....

Now if you want to talk impact on the war, then the Ta 152 had no impact on the war.

I disagree with this. Greatest is not in the performance in test, but rather delivery in the game. Emmit Smith was too small and to slow to be a pro runner, but he will be considered one of the greatest runners to play football. Greg Maddux could not throw a fastball worth a darn, yet he will be considered one of the greatest pitchers ever to play baseball. I have never voted for the F-22 or F-35 as the best fighters ever. My vote is always the F-15, strickly due to performance when bullets are flying. You can't claim to be the greatest when all you've done is spar.

A few Ta-152H were good against previous generation aircaft, but it never was tested against the likes of the P-51H, P-47N/M, F4U-4, or advance Brit fighters. Also, it apparently never overcame its break-in problems. In football, for records to count, a certain number of quarters must be played. The Ta-152H just did not play enough quarters in the game to qualify.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by davparlr

I disagree with this. Greatest is not in the performance in test, but rather delivery in the game. Emmit Smith was too small and to slow to be a pro runner, but he will be considered one of the greatest runners to play football. Greg Maddux could not throw a fastball worth a darn, yet he will be considered one of the greatest pitchers ever to play baseball. I have never voted for the F-22 or F-35 as the best fighters ever. My vote is always the F-15, strickly due to performance when bullets are flying. You can't claim to be the greatest when all you've done is spar.

A few Ta-152H were good against previous generation aircaft, but it never was tested against the likes of the P-51H, P-47N/M, F4U-4, or advance Brit fighters. Also, it apparently never overcame its break-in problems. In football, for records to count, a certain number of quarters must be played. The Ta-152H just did not play enough quarters in the game to qualify.

I actually agree with you dont take me wrong. My beef is that the same people that discredit the Ta-152H say that the P-51H as the best. Using that same arguement how can one say the P-51H is the best? It never saw any combat in WW2 at all...

[drgondog]

I agree with both of you. However I must never remain silent on this subject.

I will always maintain that the 51H is the Best Version of the Most Important Fighter for the most crucial mission of WWII. There, I've said it and as always often wrong - never uncertain.

IMHO The most crucial mission was the destruction of the Luftwaffe, wresting air superiority to point of making Strategic Bombing the most decisive factor in the air war. The lesser capability 51's broke the lesser capable Fw190s and Me109s and their experienced pilots (a huge percentage) over Targets in Central North and Southern Germany as well as Poland and Czech targets... when the 47's didn't have the range and daylight bombing doctrine was somewhat on a knife edge.

I will then put my foot in my mouth and say that the Ta152 was the Best (even though it really was fresh design - it still get's lumped in with the Fw190) of one of the Best Fighters of WWII..the same reason I love the 190D.

Regards to you both

Bill

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I actually agree with you dont take me wrong. My beef is that the same people that discredit the Ta-152H say that the P-51H as the best. Using that same arguement how can one say the P-51H is the best? It never saw any combat in WW2 at all...

That's why I have never said that the P-51H was the best of anything. The Ta-152H had the potential of being the best high altitude fighter, even compared to the other similar aircraft I mentioned. The P-51H was a hot rod and probably would have been a formidable fighter, it just never had the chance to prove itself.

[Soren]

Wasn't GregP banned ?

[lesofprimus]

I think so...