The Ta-152.... The Best High Altitude Fighter?????

[Jackson]

Sir,

I am researching the TA-152 and at the Smithsonian's web site I noticed that it is said this plane was grounded before the end of the war. Do you have any idea where in the Archives or Library of Congress I can find the necessary captured Luftwaffe documents that support this notion? I am also curious to find out if any documents are available as to why this plane was not used in the role of high altitude interceptor.



Thank you


J E S CPA

703-

Fairfax Va

Focke-Wulf Ta152H

[AV8]

I have to repsond to something Soren said above. He claims that 85% of all German forces were preoccupied on the Russian front.

Not true. See below.

Percent of German Forces on Russian Front by Year

Unit 1941 1942 1943 1944
Divisions 67% 75% 60% 57%
Troops 84% 74% 72% 40%
Aircraft 64% 65% 42% 45%

The Germans never committed 85% at ANY time, and only approached that in troops. during 1940 and 1941. By 1943 and 1944, the Germans, not being stupid, had most of their aircraft in the West to combat the bombers that were decimating the Reich.

The Russian Front was very important to the war effort, and it took a lot of ground troops, but the air forces were mostly about half and half on the fronts after 1942.

In point of fact, the Germans MAY have seen disadvantages of 10 or 12 to 1 but, if so, it was due to lack of propellers, fuel, pilots, or a com,bination of the three. It was NOT due to lack of airframes being available and late in the war. MOST German aircraft were being used to defend against the Allied bombers.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by AV8

I have to repsond to something Soren said above. He claims that 85% of all German forces were preoccupied on the Russian front.

Not true. See below.

Percent of German Forces on Russian Front by Year

Unit 1941 1942 1943 1944
Divisions 67% 75% 60% 57%
Troops 84% 74% 72% 40%
Aircraft 64% 65% 42% 45%

The Germans never committed 85% at ANY time, and only approached that in troops. during 1940 and 1941. By 1943 and 1944, the Germans, not being stupid, had most of their aircraft in the West to combat the bombers that were decimating the Reich.

The Russian Front was very important to the war effort, and it took a lot of ground troops, but the air forces were mostly about half and half on the fronts after 1942.

In point of fact, the Germans MAY have seen disadvantages of 10 or 12 to 1 but, if so, it was due to lack of propellers, fuel, pilots, or a com,bination of the three. It was NOT due to lack of airframes being available and late in the war. MOST German aircraft were being used to defend against the Allied bombers.

Good post AV8 - what's your source?

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Good post.

[Jackson]

Hello J e s cpa

The Ta-152 was not grounded before the end of the war (except perhaps for some reason common to all airplanes) but of course it did not see extensive service. It would have been used as a high altitude interceptor if time and circumstances had permitted. I don’t know that either the Library of Congress or the archives would have the documents you want, but I’d start with the National Archives, as they are generally the most helpful. You might also write the Deutches Museum in Munich for assistance.


Best

Walt





I guess I should read "Ta152 Herrmann Dietmar", I gather this is the best chronicle on the subject.

I still believe, given the P-38's problems with British gasoline and the German use of coal syn fuel, there was a problem fielding this aircraft at altitude.

I doubt the Luftwaffe had the 151 octane gas that was really needed to perform at the stated max altitudes.

[DonL]

@ AV8

for the number of units your post is right, but that's only one Point.

Nearly all mot. and Tank (Pz.) Divisions were in the east accept the 2 Tank Div and the one mot.Div for the Africakorp!
The lost of matrial (tanks, aircrafts, units etc......) was much higher than in the west or africa.
One exampel: The casualties of Units was 110000 soldiers per month without a Battle with a battle it was 150000-180000 per month! (That is only for the east)

Your post is right for the number of Units and for the aircraft Units but not for the material and the potential Units!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Jackson

Hello J e s cpa

The Ta-152 was not grounded before the end of the war (except perhaps for some reason common to all airplanes) but of course it did not see extensive service. It would have been used as a high altitude interceptor if time and circumstances had permitted. I don’t know that either the Library of Congress or the archives would have the documents you want, but I’d start with the National Archives, as they are generally the most helpful. You might also write the Deutches Museum in Munich for assistance.


Best

Walt





I guess I should read "Ta152 Herrmann Dietmar", I gather this is the best chronicle on the subject.

I still believe, given the P-38's problems with British gasoline and the German use of coal syn fuel, there was a problem fielding this aircraft at altitude.

I doubt the Luftwaffe had the 151 octane gas that was really needed to perform at the stated max altitudes.

So we tell you that German pilots who actually flew the 152 tell us that it was not grounded and you dont believe us. It takes this for you to believe what the actual people who flew the aircraft have allways said.

Sometimes you have to swallow your pride...

[Jackson]

as I posted before, Bayerliens recollections of Cobra losses do not match (greatly exceed) OKW reported losses for the period June - September 1944 for Panzer Lehr

I will report back after my trip the the National Archives..

Pride? not an issue, resolving conflicts in data (reconciling) is one of my fortes. If that were the case I would not have posted the response, or the question possibly.

I still have no clue why the Ta-152 was not used in it's intended role.. I believe there is a reason. I have outlined my thoughts and theories, including a lack of high octane aviation gas and teething problems.

I find it hard to accept the Ta 152 as a successful high altitude fighter in that it never fulfilled this role with any degree of notable praise.


My own background as an auditor keeps me a cynic, as what you learn after you think you 'know it all' is what is most important.

When I go after, what is in my own mind, an unresolved issue, I have been known to be what scan be considered, well beyond is merely obsessive.

Your help in writing or visiting the Deutsches Archives would be appreciated.


over

[Soren]

Originally Posted by DonL

@ AV8

for the number of units your post is right, but that's only one Point.

Nearly all mot. and Tank (Pz.) Divisions were in the east accept the 2 Tank Div and the one mot.Div for the Africakorp!
The lost of matrial (tanks, aircrafts, units etc......) was much higher than in the west or africa.
One exampel: The casualties of Units was 110000 soldiers per month without a Battle with a battle it was 150000-180000 per month! (That is only for the east)

Your post is right for the number of Units and for the aircraft Units but not for the material and the potential Units!

What GregP ( AV8 ) doesn't get is the fact that the German forces in the west were split into a greater number of units, hence the figures above.

[Erich]

jackson besides the US archivs which will not tell you much you need to go after every conceivable source especially German. Aas having a relative serve and die in JG 301 I have done that. Monograms attempt was to provide answers but the book may never see light of day, I am working on something right now concerning ............... well I am leaving that open. unless you have first hand knowledge from veterans of JG 301 then most probably you will never know what happened through defaults of the a/c insufficient means of combating difficulties arising from being to far from the factories and one of the largst probs is the constant move which I pointed out earlier in this thread............attacks on proposed airfields, there was no time to warm up and get into action knowing that you may come back to an over-run field held by the enemy.. anyway this is all going to be coverd in a future work

[Jackson]

Yes it is all very difficult, I wonder if Kurt Tank wrote a book..Shame on me, I never read Gallands book..

that goes on the list..I understand it is more political than zoom-zoom & dogfights. Rudy Opitz's book is the best that I have read of L/W aircraft development. I can't find it, I was 10-12 when I read it.


Heck even my father can't remember, today, all the details of his first DFC, never mind the other medals and oak leaves


My grand father mostly focused on aircraft crashes, a friend being sucked into a propeller and his home being bombed.

My own early recollections of his work are faded except for his tears, limp and scars.. That and his love for tinkering. I believe his engineering work was more sanding, milling, jigs and filing than protractors and such.


He was always building model aircraft from scratch, fiddling with wings, he never had fewer than 50 of them in his garage. I gather he started as a boy in his fathers workshop and continued to his death.


He was my mothers father, my dad took up his hobby..

I always had the best 'kites'.. and toy gliders..

[drgondog]

Before I jump in with facts about distributions of German S/E fighters is this the right forum and does anyone accept the figures from Dr Price's "The Lufwaffe Data Book"? He has a thorough Order of Battle for the

Compositions of the Main Operational Units by Luftflotte and types for 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944 and 1945.

I would only be interested in digging the May 1943 and May 1944 snapshot for Luftflotte 3 (France/Lowlands) and Reich (Germany/Denmark).

For those that have this fine research tool we're talking about pages 75-128

Having said this here are the preliminary figures for s/e fighters ALL fronts for the May snapshots

All S/e L3 Reich Total(1) %
1942 945
1943 980 198 207 405 41
1944 1063 115 439 554 52

1. % of ALL operational s/e Fighters in Luftwaffe - not including Italian, Romanian, etc fighters not assigned to a JG.

This does not include the Luft's assigned to Norway, To Italy, to Romania/Hungary/Austria/SW Russia, the W Russia, the NW Russia

These figures do not include any of the Kamp's assigned 190's - this is strictly the total number of Single engine day fighters assignable to attack USAAF bomber and fighter forces from England.

To the debates between Soren and me regarding 'Ratio's', only the Reich numbers should be used at it can be presumed that Lufflotte 3 *JG/2 and JG26* would have their hands full with P-47's and Spits over France and Lowlands while JG1, 3, 5, 11, 27, 53, gruppe of 54, 300, gruppe of 300, gruppe of 301, gruppe of 302 (effectives only/much less than 'authorized' had to defend all of Germany.

To Soren, these figures represent the Maximum number of Me 109s and Fw190s available to take on Mustang escort for deep penetrations.

At this moment in time the 339th had come on operations on April 30 so the Mustang Groups had climbed to 6 groups with approximately 60 total TO&E P-51s each and perhaps 40-50 effective each over the target

Two facts should be considered based on Price's numbers - First, the maximum percentage available to East Front is 48% - and that is only if all of Italy, Norway, Rumania, Austria, Czech and Poland based fighters were applied.

Second, it seems intuitive that great numerical superiority of German S/E Mustang Killers could be focused on any one or two Mustang groups covering a Task Force. Not saying impossible for Mustang groups always at a disadvantage - but I hope this illustrates why I don't accept the legends of 'swarms of Mustangs attacking us' at face value in every debate.

Regards to All,

Bill

[Lucky13]

Three questions....

Is the plans still around for the Ta 152's?
Would it be possible to build one new?
How much would it cost?

[Erich]

Bill I trust A.P.'s work as much as I could throw the man. the two of us had a tiff and I would rather not even go there. he has published some unique works especially about the German nf and radar war which is still a classic, his older book on the Fw 190 was heraled as something quite great, re-published it is quite old news with some inaccurate info. the SturmFw pilots quoted in the book have told me other versions of their own stories and said that Herr P. did not have it down correctly..........

well anyway the Luftw date in 1943 early 44 is well documented through several sources late 44 till wars end is documented and was burned up through explosions and vaporization via Allied and Soviet bombings and shellings in and around Berlin. One of the main reasons we cannot confirm many the later war kills from fall of 44 onward as it was not recorded and if it was on a very private level through the Geschwader administration. Talk about evidence showing the complete loss and or breakdown of the higher realm of the Luftwaffe

yes Lucky the plans for the 152H still exist, when friend Jerry Crandall viewed the NASM Grüne 4 there for his 1992 painting JG 301 Stabschwarm he measured every square inch of that a/c to have the most up to date configs of the a/c in schematic form, he even explains in some detail whom he worked with to perform this feat in a double-sided placard included with his beautiful painting which hangs framed right above my oak office desk with a wonderful signed pic of Will Reschke wearing his Ritterkreuz.

would a new one be built ...............good question and price ? yikes

[Lucky13]

Better start to save empty beer cans, bottles then, eh? Or win on the lottery...
Wonder if $1 000 000 would cover the costs?
What kind of fighter would the Ta have been if the Jumo 222 hadn't been failure and they had fitted them with that engine?