The Ta-152.... The Best High Altitude Fighter?????

[Erich]

RG thank you for the sources, I know see where this information came from. I own just the top title listed in Joe's short article for the fotos only. there are many mistakes in Greens big boy book, and the two other titles I gave away as bogus gifts back in the early 70's, they were so full of errors.

the Ta 152 was built in response to anything that flew over the Reich at high altitude. that meant the P-51 or any other US/RAF fighter not the B-29, as it was not even considered. As I mentioned bomber killers like the Me 262 were to be brought up for that taks, and by late 1945 into 1946 had there been a prolonged war, JG 300 would of traded all prop driven a/c for the jet as one particualr unit to face high flying Allied bombers...... slightly off topic but there are so many authors that have taken W. Greens book as the bible of the Luftwaffe and in one case on FAGr 5's journey to New York has stuck like wallpapaer glue for so many years I cannot even see why it is still accepted as fact as in nowhere in the short history of the Ju 290 unit does it mention anything about this. Greens op historys on the A/c depeicted have to be taken with a slight of hand and other more delicate and thourough works on individual units must be associated with to provide needed clarity....................Greens profiles are all hotly contested as being untrue. The schematics are interesting I have to admit.

ok enough of my bitch

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Also another thing that needs to be stated. Yes the P-51H may have been the premiere Mustang and the US answer to the Ta-152 but one can not say which is better then the other for they never met in combat. Sorry but you can not say that the P-51H is better.

And RG you only quote parts that suit your needs but you dont quote parts that say otherwise such as this (this is the same source that you listed open and I read the whole thing):

It was said that no British or American fighters risked attacking an Me 262 during landing while Ta 152s were known to be circling the airfield. The large wing area of the Ta 152 made it quite easy to fly.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevo...her/ta152.html

Why is this, if the Ta-152 was so inferior to the P-51's why didn't they just go in an attack. Maybe this is not true but then that would make the whole source worthless.

[KraziKanuK]

DerAdlerIstGelandet, you and GT(in another thread) have both stated > 152Hs used as airfield defence.

To bad but this is not true. This is another of the myths started by Green, and perpetrated by many others.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am not stating that, I believe they were Fw-190D's and not Ta-152H's however this proves my point that the sourse being used was crap.

[KraziKanuK]

Opps, sorry mis read.

Was not those gaudy red with white striped under wing colored Doras for af defense?

baughe's site is not bad as a whole but yes he does have some questionable data/statements.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes they were used for Airfield defence. I can not remember the website. Erich has it, can you please post the web address on the airfield defenders.

[Erich]

Gentlemen

ok let's try to make a few points just that much more clear.

# 1 Ta 152's were never used for airfield defence for Me 262's. On one maybe two missions of JG 301 they were in the air above II./JG 301's Dora 9's which were a thousand feet lower than the Ta 152's of III. gruppe.

# 2 Dora 9's as airfield defenders were first used by Kommando Nowotny's Me 262 fighter unit. The Dora gruppe was III./JG 54 later absorbed into IV./JG 26.

The KG units that used the Me 262 never had air cover defence and neither did the famous JG 7 although it has been stated as another myth that they had Bf 109G-10's from II./JG 7.

The Würger staffel of 5-6 Dora's, D-9's, D-11's and D-13's had the red/white undersides and they were based roughly a mile from JV 44's Me 262 base and provided minimal cover for the jet unit deep in Bavaria.

hope this helps

Erich ~

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There we go, thanks Erich. I knew it was Fw-190D's and not Ta-152's.

[Udet]

To a very good extent i am with Erich here.

That is a point RG_Lunatic apparently does not want to see. In your view RG, had the war been protracted for several more months, or even a year, you see only the allies bringing on their newest and "superior" toys.

It is interesting to note you do not see the Germans producing more of the newest and most advanced toys of the planet!

The jet engines of ALL nations already producing them were having trouble, still the Germans were the ONLY ONES who put a jet in service, furthermore a jet which brought down in combat an interesting number of enemy planes!

The Gloster Meteor was a piece of crap compared to the Schwalbe, no matter what my British friends might argue here.

As i said before, any protraction of the war plays in favor of Germany mostly!

If the P-51 was matched with the late Bf109s and Fw190s, the Ta152 represented a definitive superior fighter over anything the allies were fielding.

The "it did not see action in role for it was originally conceived" argument is 100% ridiculous.

As Erich correctly put it, it does not matter if the idea was to fight the dreaded B-29, it could simply deal and outmatch any allied machine flying over the Reich.

RG are you forgetting the late Bf109 versions could more than outfly ANY allied plane above 35,000 ft? So the service ceiling of the B-29 is comfortably within the reach of the late Bf 109 versions. Or are you going to bring in more of your very sophisticated technical data to attempt proving that is not true?

the very high altitude performance of the Bf 109 was not matched by any fighter of the USAAF, so it is very unlikely the Germans decided to create a fighter especifically for the purpose of superb very high altitude performance, the Ta 152 in this case.

Also i find interesting to note that RG puts into doubt the performance of German planes which in fact saw action and scored killes (Ta 152 and the Me 262) but predicts the superiority of USA planes which in fact NEVER saw combat!

[mosquitoman]

IMO the Schwalbe was better than the Meteor, and I'm normally on the side of the allies

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Also another thing that needs to be stated. Yes the P-51H may have been the premiere Mustang and the US answer to the Ta-152 but one can not say which is better then the other for they never met in combat. Sorry but you can not say that the P-51H is better.

I agree, we simply do not know how the Ta152 might have matched up against the P-51H, P-47M, or late model Spitfire.

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

And RG you only quote parts that suit your needs but you dont quote parts that say otherwise such as this (this is the same source that you listed open and I read the whole thing):

Adler, I did not re-read the whole page on the Ta, I only scanned various pages I've got marked for the Ta for the string "B-29".

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Why is this, if the Ta-152 was so inferior to the P-51's why didn't they just go in an attack. Maybe this is not true but then that would make the whole source worthless.

That is clearly sillyness. There were so few Ta's that Allied fighter pilots had no idea it even existed. It's a German, probably a Tank inspired, myth. Tank was patting himself on the back very hard toward the end of WWII. "It was said" does not say who was saying it, or that it was true.

As for the B-29 argument, it is a known fact that the German's had spies carefully watching US bomber development, particularly Boeing, which tends to give some amount of credance to that part of the page. I believe 3 German spies were caught and executed over this. I cannot recall the source for this info, perhaps a book called "Hitler's Spies" or something like that I read long ago.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by mosquitoman

IMO the Schwalbe was better than the Meteor, and I'm normally on the side of the allies

I certainly agree. But I think the P-80 was at least a match for the 262. Probably it was inferior as a bomber killer, but superior as a jet vs. jet fighter.

=S=

Lunatic

[cheddar cheese]

I think that the Ar-234 was perhaps the best jet of the war though.

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

I think that the Ar-234 was perhaps the best jet of the war though.

But with only about 38 having seen action, 12 bombers, 24 reconnaissance, and 2 night-fighters, it was truely insignificant. Once again, a huge effort to produce 210 airframes of which only about 15% saw any kind of action typifies the German jet program.

And the P-80 could carry about the same bombload.

=S=

Lunatic

[cheddar cheese]

I think it was the first truely useful jet. It carried out the recon and bombing roles withgood efficiency. Im not sure about the Nightfighters though, I think they were only prototypes.