The Ta-152.... The Best High Altitude Fighter?????

[lesofprimus]

The Pink ones or the Lavender Blue ones with that Butterfly on em???

[evangilder]

I was thinking of the racy lacy ones, with the optional bulge.

[lesofprimus]

OK, but that bulge in the back will leave a brown stain tho...

[evangilder]

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That is the problem some people here (I am not saying you Davidicus ) tend to automatically asume that certain aircraft (mostly allied aircraft) would have been the best things since woman and crotchless panties . They automatically dispute Japanese or German aircraft because they did not see any service but an allied aircraft that was the same way is okay.

I too think the Do-335 could have been one great machine had it been given the chance, however based on actually seeing service the Ta-152 in my opinion and probably the opinion of many experts (which I am not) was the most superior piston aircraft to see service in WW2.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

Gentlermen, before we all get our panties in a bunch, all I said was, "I suspect the Americans would have countered that threat with the XP-47J." I never said that the XP-47J would be superior.(I was thinking it however. )

We do know that the XP-47J was flying during the latter part of 1943 and was developed specifically to handle the Fw-190. How it would have actually fared in such combat had it gone into production we will obviously never know.

It should be borne in mind though that this was not an entirely untested and new combat design. It was essentially just a lighter and more aerodynamic P-47 Razorback with a 2,800hp "C" series turbo-supercharged engine within a close fitted cowling. I understand that it employed the same wings, tail, rudder and control surfaces.

And the Ta-152 was also pretty much the same. It was an evolution of the Fw-190D-9. I am not sure if it is true but I have read that the last 190D-9 to come off of the assembly line were renamed Ta-152's.

[Erich]

The Germans would have countered with increased useage of a newer Me 262 jet streamlined with overall much better fuel efficient engines and amored to boot..........Ta's would of been used for airifield protection

Jupp Keil I believe was the only Ta 152 ace with 6 kills in the craft. Walter Loos and Will Reschke came close I think with 4 each. Bubi Bloom got 1-2

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Off topic but speaking of the 262. Didn't Willie Messerschmitt build a version of the 262 called for the Shneider Cup in 1949? Not sure if I am correct here, that is why I am asking.

[Erich]

not sure but the Soviets tried to elaborate on the desgin from captured stocks near Prague at wars end

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes I have read on them.

[Monkeysee1]

As to Guest's comment on the wing twist. Almost all wings have some kind of 'twist' to them. The actual reason is to provide stall warning (through buffeting on the more cambered portion of the wing) while the outside of the wing, the ailerons, still remain effective even though the inside portion of the wing was essentially stalling.

Very few aircraft actually have a wing 'twist'. Most wings are built with the root portion of the wing having a greater camber as it joins the fuselage. These two methods however are generally more expensive than other methods used to simulate wing 'twist'. The most common one you'll see is the 'stall strip'. Literally a piece of metal bolted or welded onto the leading edge of a wing to disrupt the airflow there first. A great example of this is the Lear 35.

Anyway, I still think a P-47 could smoke the 152. Didn't it have a higher ceiling by 7,000 ft or so? And... for some reason I thought it was still faster than the 152? For sure it didn't have the questionable construction that late war German construction suffered from.

[lesofprimus]

Really depends on the model of -47 we're talkin about...

Plain and simple, the -152H was more than a handful for ANY pilot in ANY aircraft to deal with...

[Jabberwocky]

The problem here is that no-one is making comparisons with other fighters. Its all well and good to state that the Ta-152 was the best High-Altitude fighter, but WHY was it so? What made it better than its opponents.

What qualifications did it have to make it THE BEST?

Speed?
Range?
Service Ceiling?
Armament?
Sighting?
Climb?
Dive?
Roll?
Stall warnings?
Instanteous turn?
Turning circle?
Visibility?
Quality of production?
Easy of handling?
Ease of mainenence?
Ease of Production?
Ease of pilot conversion?
Slow speed flight characteristics?
Landing characteristics?

All of these factors need to be considered before a judgement can be made.

We also need to look at aircraft that could of been potential competitors in the high altitude stakes

Likely ones are;

P-47M
P-47N
P-51H
Spitfire XIV
Spitfire XVIII
Spitfire 21
Yak-9U

When you look at the list of opponents the Ta-152 suddenly doesn't seem as fierce as it did wen it was going up against P-51Ds, P-47-D-30s and Spitfire IXs. In many cases it is out-run, out-climbed, out-turned, out-dived and out manouvered by it Allied counterparts. With the exception of the Yak, all of these planes have a 40,000 foot plus flight ceiling, engines that are rated over 2000 hp and (with the exception of the P-51H), quite heavy armament and are just as much at home in this environment as the Ta..

[Udet]

Mr. Jabber:

From where is it that you concluded some of those allied planes "out-run, out-dived, out-manouvered and out-turned" the Ta 152?

I do not have the time to conduct any in depth technical discussion here; however, I will bring up elements extracted from the combat records that can add strenght to the notion of how superb the Ta 152 was.

At very high altitude, the Bf 109, G-6 and G-10 (the versions which saw the most action against both RAF and USAAF in 1944) were formidable fighters against anything fielded by the enemy. The especially trimmed AS variants came to increase the value of the version.

The Butcher Bird, Fw 190 A´s, could easily chew anything sent out by the enemy at mid/low altitude. Emil Lang, for instance, shot down 4 P-51´s in less than 5 minutes...twice. Or the sturmböck pilots flying their Fw´s fitted with rough 250 kg of extra armor who managed to digest Mustangs during the fierce air battles of 1944.

Now, the "long nose" Fw 190 D, appeared to fill the high altitude gap of its predecessor. Appearing in modest numbers in battle also proved its worth against anything fielded by the enemy.

The Ta 152 came as the final evolution of Kurt Tank´s fighter. The tests showed it left both the Bf 109 and the previous Fw190s behind. We know it, too little and too late for the Ta 152 as well.

As for the combat record of the Ta 152 you can check the accounts of stab/JG 301 during the final weeks of the war. Being an extremely high altitude fighter, the Ta 152 proved lethal against the soviet Yaks at very low altitude during the very last days of the war.

[lesofprimus]

Jabberwok, if u go back to page one and read the whole thread, u will see several arguments and info concerning this question...