Ta152-H1 uber-fighter?

Originally Posted by plan_D

I can't find a source yet but you obviously have not seen a EE Lightning starting up. From the scramble call to the Lightning pulling off the runway, it's about 30 seconds. That includes time it takes for the man to run out and get in the thing. If you sat a man in a Lightning, told him to start it, it would take about 15 seconds to have his engines going and he could be hurtling down the run way. You know Lightnings don't have to wait for avionics to start up? Engine on, heated and he's off and pulling up vertically off the run way. And they could carry on going vertically to 10,000 feet and still gain speed.

I think you should check this statement out. No jet that I'm aware of can take off without a substantial (several minute) engine warm up. Even prop planes require an engine warm up, but jets moreso.

I've not been able to locate time to altitude figures for the EE Lightning, but all sources refer to its "increadible zoom climb", which implies full speed at the start of the climb.

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[plan_D]

Easy to think about, the Lightning is like a rocket ( ). It was designed as an interceptor, this it did with incredible speed. The engine warm up is true for most aircraft but the Lightning took just seconds to warm up and go. There was no avionics to worry about, it was all EXTREMELY basic engineering to make the thing fly and fly fast.

Originally Posted by plan_D

Easy to think about, the Lightning is like a rocket ( ). It was designed as an interceptor, this it did with incredible speed. The engine warm up is true for most aircraft but the Lightning took just seconds to warm up and go. There was no avionics to worry about, it was all EXTREMELY basic engineering to make the thing fly and fly fast.

No matter how basic the avionics, the engine still has to warm up completely for the tolerances to be right. As far as I know, all jet engines require at least 2 minutes absolute minimum warm up time, most require 5 minutes to be safe.

Jet's don't accelerate that fast from a standing start. I suspect the Bearcat had the advantage to 10,000 feet only because of its very short takeoff distance. I could be wrong, but so far I've found nothing to indicate the EE Lightning could beat 91 seconds to 10,000 feet from a standing start.

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Originally Posted by Erich

interesting, they should take the game up several levels to 30,000 feet and then see what happens............ ?

E ~

It happens sometimes, and if the Ta pilot flies smart he has the distinct advantage. However, it is very hard to maintain your altitude in such a fight. Almost any combat manuver will cost you 4-5 thousand feet. It is very easy to get into a rolling scissors type thing and end up down at 20k or lower in no time.

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[plan_D]

The Lightning didn't have 2 minutes to sit there warming up. It had to get to 50,000 feet pretty damn quickly as soon as the scramble came in. You think it could get up to a Soviet Bear quick enough if it had to sit there for 2 - 5 minutes?
Not only have I seen one of those buggers start up in under a minute, my dad worked on the Quick Response pens when in 11 Sqn. and saw them scramble weekly. And he says that they could be up in the air in well under a minute from scramble call.

Originally Posted by plan_D

The Lightning didn't have 2 minutes to sit there warming up. It had to get to 50,000 feet pretty damn quickly as soon as the scramble came in. You think it could get up to a Soviet Bear quick enough if it had to sit there for 2 - 5 minutes?
Not only have I seen one of those buggers start up in under a minute, my dad worked on the Quick Response pens when in 11 Sqn. and saw them scramble weekly. And he says that they could be up in the air in well under a minute from scramble call.

I don't know about the British, but US scramble teams on alert have aircraft that have the engines warmed up in advance. If they are warmed up every 30 minutes or so (or even less if indoors) then it takes much less time to get them ready to go.

Also, the Russian Bear? Its top speed was about 600 mph, or about 1 mile every 6 seconds, at altitude (~35,000 feet). It would have been detected at a range of several hundred miles. Even at a range of 150 miles it would take 15 minutes to reach the radar station, which would be foward deployed somewhat from the targets. This leaves 5 mintues for warmup, 3 minutes to get to altitude, and 7 minutes for intercept - totally doable. And of course there would be a lot more time than that because radar would give the warning at a range of several hundred miles.

Finally, what does warmup time have to do with it anyway. It is assumed the plane is sitting with brakes on and the engine thourougly warmed up when the "go" signal is given to climb.

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Note: edited due to math error.

[plan_D]

Did you just say 35,000 feet for the Tu-95? Try 50,000 feet and then we're talking. Those things could fly at 57,000 feet if they really wanted to.

If we're talking a Lightning sat there, warmed up with brakes on. Do you know how fast these things can get going? The thing could climb vertically like a bloody rocket to 10,000 feet. You have obviously never seen a Lightning in flight, or I'm doubting you've seen one at all.

[DaveB.inVa]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

Also, the Russian Bear? Its top speed was about 600 mph, or about 1 mile every 6 seconds, at altitude (~35,000 feet).

Plus the Bear isnt going to be doing 600 the whole time. It going to have to cruise for a while just to be able to get where its going. The listed cruise speed is 442 mph.

I dont know how long it could keep up the near 600 mark but I doubt they would want to do it very long simply for fuel economy purposes.

No I've never seen one in flight, never seen one in real life at all.

But have you ever seen a F8F take off?

20 November {1946} At Cleveland, Ohio, an F8F Grumman Bearcat with Lieutenant Commander Merl W. Davenport as pilot, took off in a distance of 115 feet from a standing start and climbed to 10,000 feet in 94 seconds.
http://www.history.navy.mil/avh-1910/PART06.PDF

And that wasn't even the record for the plane!

I would bet the F8F was off the ground before the EE Lightning had rolled 50 feet.

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[plan_D]

Do you know how impressive Mach 0.92 is for a turbo-prop plane?

You think the Lightning rolls? Jesus christ, you really need to see it take off. It's a bloody rocket with wings! That pilot opens the throttle, that bugger is hurtling down the runway like an effin' rocket, and he'll put its nose straight up like a rocket too.

[GermansRGeniuses]

Now, now, turboshaft...





Let's not get this up again...

[plan_D]

Bloody hell, GrG. TURBO-SHAFT plane.

Originally Posted by plan_D

You think the Lightning rolls? Jesus christ, you really need to see it take off. It's a bloody rocket with wings! That pilot opens the throttle, that bugger is hurtling down the runway like an effin' rocket, and he'll put its nose straight up like a rocket too.

I'm sure it was very impressive. Still I would bet it would not get 50 feet before the Bearcat was in the air. Turbojet/fan engines just don't accelerate that fast from a standing start. I would also bet it took 1500+ of runway to get airborne. The F-15 takes 2500 feet to get airborne.

BTW: in checking this out, the Phantom appears to have climbed faster than the EE Lightning. Beats the F8F by a fair margin too, which tends to make me think you are probably right about the Lightning being faster to 10,000 feet.

In March 1962 new world climb records to 9,000 and 12,000 meters were established at NAS Brunswick, Maine, when an F4H-1 piloted by Lieutenant Colonel W. C. McGraw, USMC, reached those altitudes from a standing start in 61.62 and 77.15 seconds, respectively. The F4H-1 continued its assault on time-to-climb records at NAS Brunswick as Lieutenant Commander D. W. Nordberg piloted the Phantom II to 15,000 meters altitude in 114.54 seconds. -Lieutenant Commander F. Taylor Brown piloted the F4H-1 Phantom II at NAS Point Mugu, to a new world time-to-climb record for 20,000 meters with a time of 178.5 seconds.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-4-history.htm

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[plan_D]

The F-4 was actually slower at scrambling than the EE Lightning. The F-4 had to wait for everything to power up, the EE Lightning didn't. Really, RG, you need to see an EE Lightning take off it's just like a rocket.

Originally Posted by plan_D

The F-4 was actually slower at scrambling than the EE Lightning. The F-4 had to wait for everything to power up, the EE Lightning didn't. Really, RG, you need to see an EE Lightning take off it's just like a rocket.

The F-15 really beats them both and I've seen it.

Taking off before everything powers up is stupid. What if something critical does not power up?

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