Ta152-H1 uber-fighter?

[redcoat]

I went to the Woodford airshow in the 80's, and I saw 3 EE Lightnings do a quick take off in formation and a vertical climb.... I'm not a fan of jets, but it impressed me....
Mind you, I was slightly deaf for a few days afterwards

[Lightning Guy]

A jet could do it. And even the number of jets that could do it would be rather limited. And many of those jets could only do it in a clean configuration. I just don't think a piston-engined aircaft would have the speed/power needed.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

a piston wouldn't have a chance in a straight up vertical climb, only a small handfull of jets had the pure power to do it, especially in the 60s.............

interestingly the vulcan could also go straight up into a vertical climb from a take off, although obviously for not as long as the lightening...............

The Bearcat could not go "strait up", but it could (in later models) maintain something around 6500 feet per minute right off the ground. I.e., that's not a "zoom" climb.

The Lighting could do 30,000 fpm in the earlier versions, 50,000 in the later versions. The Phantom could do 70,000 fpm, and I believe the F15 is faster than that!

=S=

Lunatic

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but i don't believe the phantom could sustain a vertical climb from take off as long as the lightening.............

[evangilder]

I agree Lanc, the Phantom is probably considerably heavier too. The fpm measurment is okay, but it doesn't tell how long that climb rate can be maintained. Weight and drag are going to effect it.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

not to mention the fact that the lightening did it in far more style............

[cheddar cheese]

Originally Posted by GermansRGeniuses

Bollocks, that thing stalls when you try to turn...



Twelve whole horsepower isn't quite enough for a vertical climb...


__________/\... BOOM! (That would be the flight pattern, a long roll, a quick climb, a stall, and a dive resulting in a crash...)

But it was very light...

[the lancaster kicks ass]

and i've been reading about it and it was extremely advanced.................

[cheddar cheese]

Yep, if the British had it in 1066 the Frenchies might not have made it onto our turf Emphasis on "might" there

Originally Posted by evangilder

I agree Lanc, the Phantom is probably considerably heavier too. The fpm measurment is okay, but it doesn't tell how long that climb rate can be maintained. Weight and drag are going to effect it.

The phantom, from a standing start, could reach:

9000m (29528 feet) in 61.62 seconds
12000m (39370 feet) in 77.15 seconds
15000m (49213 feet) in 114.54 seconds
20000m (65617 feet) in 177.5 seconds

It had a thrust to weight ratio of greater than 1, so it could climb "strait up", though I imagine the best climb rate was at something a little less than 90 degrees (and this is probably true of the EE Lighting too).

F-15 -
30,000m (98,425ft) in 207.8 seconds

EE Lightning -
12192m (40000 feet) in 150 seconds

This was the only time to alt figure I could find for the EE Lightning. Since I only found it in one place, perhaps you can provide some better info?

BTW: The initial rate of climb of the Lightning is indeed considerably better than that of the Phantom, about the same as the F-16, and a little worse than the F-15.

Relating to the quick takeoff...

The main incursion Russian bomber was the Tupolev (Myasishchev ‘Bear’) which had a range of some 6000 miles, once RADAR had picked up one of these monsters the klaxon alert was sounded from RAF Bawdsey, RAF Neatishead, Fylingdales and other RADAR stations. The front and rear hangar doors had ‘panic red buttons’ situated in the corridor from the accomodation block to the hangar, the first through the corridor hit the buttons. The pilots were strapped in, if it was an immediate alert the two Rolls Royce Avon engines would be started through the AVPIN (Iso-propyl nitrate) starters and the one or both aircraft would be scrambled onto the runway and airborne in just a few short minutes. These aircraft had priority over all other aircraft.
http://splashdown2.tripod.com/handle...tings/id7.html

To me, a "few" means 3 or more.

=S=

Lunatic

[Lightning Guy]

Are those figures for clean aircraft? If so, the value is little more than academic. It may make for nice records, but more useful is how quickly they can reach altitude carrying a useful weapons load.

Originally Posted by Lightning Guy

Are those figures for clean aircraft? If so, the value is little more than academic. It may make for nice records, but more useful is how quickly they can reach altitude carrying a useful weapons load.

I suppose... but... the EE Lightning couldn't carry a "useful weapons load"



Lunatic

[plan_D]

Excuse me, RG. I'll tell you the truth behind the QRF (Quick Reaction Flight) since my dad served in those hangers, with the 11 Sqn. Lightning at RAF Binbrook.
I'm glad you've finally realised how quickly the AVPIN can start an engine (A short note on AVPIN, when it's alight you can't put it out. It creates it's own oxygen).

The two Lightnings in the ORF hangar were very rarely scrambled together, it was normally only one scrambled while the other pilot waited in the second in case another 'Bear' was picked up.
The pilot often knew about the upcoming scramble call before it actually happened because he could listen on land-line radio. Listening to air traffic challenging the UA (Unidentified Aircraft). The pilot often had his helmet resting on the canopy so he wouldn't have to rush for it, it'd be there with his plane.

When the scramble call came, all the technicians and pilots would run out. The pilot would get in, followed by a technician who would strap him in, pull out his ejection pin, show the pilot, then close the canopy and pull away the ladders. While this was going on, another tech had banged the doors open. At the same time another tech had plugged in power sets and as soon as the confirmation (through land-line, couldn't be intercepted) came from air traffic the pilot would go - if both were ordered, both would go. AVPIN would kick in, the engines (didn't require heating, no avionics needed to start) would start...he'd taxi on to the piano keys (end of the runway) and bang on re-heat and be slamming down the runway and up.

From scramble call to that Lightning being up, yes a few minutes. But it takes time to get all men out and all jobs done. From brakes off to taking off, a few seconds.

Now, no matter what your site tells you. I could tell you more, my dad was there, he served with these things and sometimes scramble calls came three times a night. And he worked on the things, he made sure they flew. I don't care what 'few' means to you. My dad says from scramble call to the Lightning up, 2 minutes was easy. It's your problem if you don't believe it.
Oh and I forgot, the pilot was told where to go by ground control with their own RADAR. The pilot could turn all his stuff on while in flight.

And 2 Firestreaks is good enough ammo load, plus 2 30mm Aden cannons. If it was a true attack, the whole station would be on alert..and RAF Binbrook had 2 Lightning (11 Sqn and 5 Sqn) both with 14 Lightnings, with 2 Firestreaks each getting prepped. On top of the QRF, there were two loaded up in a hanger to be sent straight out after the QRF ones.

It's all much better than anything America had that couldn't even reach 57,000 feet until the Phantom. And I'll say again, the Lightning could scramble quicker than the Phantom.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

very good info, thanks............