Tail guuner - Aircraft of World War II

elmilitaro · 04-03-2006, 09:08 AM

Hey guys if you were a tail gunner which of these weapons would you prefer, 4 .30 caliber machine guns or 2 .50 caliber machine guns? explain.

Hot Space · 04-03-2006, 09:10 AM

2 .50's. Got a better range and hitting power

Twitch · 04-03-2006, 12:55 PM

Ditto, for the same reason- plus the ammo is more potent when you consider API compared to anything else.

syscom3 · 04-03-2006, 01:50 PM

A pair of .50's beats four "pea shooters" anyday.

R988 · 04-03-2006, 01:55 PM

I suppose the four .30s could give slightly better coverage, but getting the extra hits probably isn't worth much if you don't do much damage when you do get hits.

Four .50s would be better

loomaluftwaffe · 04-03-2006, 11:09 PM

2x 20mm hehehe, lol jk, 2x .50

Aggie08 · 04-03-2006, 11:40 PM

I always wondered why the brits were so intent on .303s. Anyone know why?

Twitch · 04-04-2006, 02:34 PM

.30 and .303 calibers were totally useless in even the thinnest armor penetration period.

cheddar cheese · 04-04-2006, 03:33 PM

2x .50's, CR.42 style.

Gemhorse · 04-04-2006, 06:12 PM

I disagree Twitch - While they may not have been as effective as 2X.5's, they still ripped the tit off many enemy NF's....they could put a fair concentration of lead [of varying compositions] into a coupla square feet of target.
Great Britain had a shortage of armaments approaching the start of WWII, and .5's were hard to get. That's why Hurricanes & Spits had 8 - 12 x .303's that definately clawed many Luftwaffe aircraft down in the BoB....While they didn't make much impression on armour-plating, they still tore at everything else that was vulnerable. I'm sure every serving member of the British Armed Forces would've loved heavier calibre, but the .303's sufficed, especially in concert with 20mm cannons in fighters. Any Luftwaffe fighter attacking a British bomber with 4x .303 squirting back would've been ducking, I'm sure I would've.......

Aggie08 · 04-05-2006, 01:08 AM

They may have been short on armaments, but why then did they request all american-bought aircraft be fitted with .303s instead of the stock .50s?

lesofprimus · 04-05-2006, 08:35 AM

There was a huge excess in Britian of the .303 cal round, so they used these guns to save the ammunition costs.....

elmilitaro · 04-05-2006, 08:59 AM

interesting. Nice info guys.

loomaluftwaffe · 04-05-2006, 11:18 AM

Luft pilots do comment on the little peas endlessly raining on their little fighter

Twitch · 04-05-2006, 12:30 PM

Eight thirty calibers were OLD Battle of Britain-style armament thinking. Let's stick enough of them on a plane then spray and pray. Once cannons were on Spits for example the .303s were used for aiming purposes only. I have personally been told by Spit pilots how the .303s bounced off the German planes- and no, not just later FW 190A-8s either.

The question shouldn't be why the abundance of thirty caliber guns and ammo existed early on it should be why did 4- .303s make way for 2- .50s on Spits? Why did MG 17s get replaced by MG 13s?

By late 1943 early 1944 there was no place for pre-war rifle caliber weapons on front line aircraft in daylight use. At night you could get away with light armament or none at all ala the B-29s stripped of weapons during the firebomb raids.

Lumaluftwaffe may have been joking but he is right on the mark- where you can up-gun do it. 20mms are better than .50s which are better than .30s.

Simply because a high volume of concentrated .30 caliber fire will bring an enemy plane doesn't mean it is optimum. In combat short bursts are usually all that is is possible. The ordnance striking the enemy needs to take its toll in damage with as few rounds as possible. It is not easy or usually possible to train you weapons on an enemy for many seconds at a time until your BBs finally take effect.

04-03-2006, 09:08 AM	#1
elmilitaro Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 405	Tail guuner Hey guys if you were a tail gunner which of these weapons would you prefer, 4 .30 caliber machine guns or 2 .50 caliber machine guns? explain. __________________ "And when he gets to heaven, To Saint Peter he will tell; One more marine reporting, sir- I've served my time in hell." A marine gravemarker on guadalcanal

04-03-2006, 12:55 PM	#3
Twitch Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: City of the Angels California Posts: 809	Ditto, for the same reason- plus the ammo is more potent when you consider API compared to anything else. __________________

04-03-2006, 01:50 PM	#4
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,283	A pair of .50's beats four "pea shooters" anyday. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

04-03-2006, 01:55 PM	#5
R988 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Londonium Posts: 609	I suppose the four .30s could give slightly better coverage, but getting the extra hits probably isn't worth much if you don't do much damage when you do get hits. Four .50s would be better __________________ Never mistake knowledge for wisdom. One helps you make a living; the other helps you make a life.

04-03-2006, 11:09 PM	#6
loomaluftwaffe Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,848	2x 20mm hehehe, lol jk, 2x .50 __________________ "The German Luftwaffe always fought without any reserves. This is also the reason why we have pilots with extremely high numbers of victories." - General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland"

04-03-2006, 09:10 AM	#2
Hot Space Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 2,172	2 .50's. Got a better range and hitting power

04-03-2006, 11:40 PM	#7
Aggie08 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 1,013	I always wondered why the brits were so intent on .303s. Anyone know why? __________________ "I had ten rockets on board, and as I wasn't particularly fond of head-on attacks, I salvoed the whole lot at him. The rockets didn't hit him but but they must have scared the bejesus out of him, for he did a steep turn to starboard... I let him have the full blast, all eight fifty-calibers. I had never seen an aircraft completely disintegrate in the air the way this Me-110 did..." Bill Dunn, 406th Fighter Group Matt

04-04-2006, 02:34 PM	#8
Twitch Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: City of the Angels California Posts: 809	.30 and .303 calibers were totally useless in even the thinnest armor penetration period. __________________

04-04-2006, 03:33 PM	#9
cheddar cheese Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: WSM, England Posts: 20,387	2x .50's, CR.42 style.

04-04-2006, 06:12 PM	#10
Gemhorse Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 584	I disagree Twitch - While they may not have been as effective as 2X.5's, they still ripped the tit off many enemy NF's....they could put a fair concentration of lead [of varying compositions] into a coupla square feet of target. Great Britain had a shortage of armaments approaching the start of WWII, and .5's were hard to get. That's why Hurricanes & Spits had 8 - 12 x .303's that definately clawed many Luftwaffe aircraft down in the BoB....While they didn't make much impression on armour-plating, they still tore at everything else that was vulnerable. I'm sure every serving member of the British Armed Forces would've loved heavier calibre, but the .303's sufficed, especially in concert with 20mm cannons in fighters. Any Luftwaffe fighter attacking a British bomber with 4x .303 squirting back would've been ducking, I'm sure I would've.......

04-05-2006, 01:08 AM	#11
Aggie08 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 1,013	They may have been short on armaments, but why then did they request all american-bought aircraft be fitted with .303s instead of the stock .50s? __________________ "I had ten rockets on board, and as I wasn't particularly fond of head-on attacks, I salvoed the whole lot at him. The rockets didn't hit him but but they must have scared the bejesus out of him, for he did a steep turn to starboard... I let him have the full blast, all eight fifty-calibers. I had never seen an aircraft completely disintegrate in the air the way this Me-110 did..." Bill Dunn, 406th Fighter Group Matt

04-05-2006, 08:35 AM	#12
lesofprimus Minister of Whoopass Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi Posts: 17,502	There was a huge excess in Britian of the .303 cal round, so they used these guns to save the ammunition costs..... __________________ My IL2 Video Tribute to My Grandfather: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzN5RuNNJk

04-05-2006, 08:59 AM	#13
elmilitaro Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 405	interesting. Nice info guys. __________________ "And when he gets to heaven, To Saint Peter he will tell; One more marine reporting, sir- I've served my time in hell." A marine gravemarker on guadalcanal

04-05-2006, 11:18 AM	#14
loomaluftwaffe Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,848	Luft pilots do comment on the little peas endlessly raining on their little fighter __________________ "The German Luftwaffe always fought without any reserves. This is also the reason why we have pilots with extremely high numbers of victories." - General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland"

04-05-2006, 12:30 PM	#15
Twitch Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: City of the Angels California Posts: 809	Eight thirty calibers were OLD Battle of Britain-style armament thinking. Let's stick enough of them on a plane then spray and pray. Once cannons were on Spits for example the .303s were used for aiming purposes only. I have personally been told by Spit pilots how the .303s bounced off the German planes- and no, not just later FW 190A-8s either. The question shouldn't be why the abundance of thirty caliber guns and ammo existed early on it should be why did 4- .303s make way for 2- .50s on Spits? Why did MG 17s get replaced by MG 13s? By late 1943 early 1944 there was no place for pre-war rifle caliber weapons on front line aircraft in daylight use. At night you could get away with light armament or none at all ala the B-29s stripped of weapons during the firebomb raids. Lumaluftwaffe may have been joking but he is right on the mark- where you can up-gun do it. 20mms are better than .50s which are better than .30s. Simply because a high volume of concentrated .30 caliber fire will bring an enemy plane doesn't mean it is optimum. In combat short bursts are usually all that is is possible. The ordnance striking the enemy needs to take its toll in damage with as few rounds as possible. It is not easy or usually possible to train you weapons on an enemy for many seconds at a time until your BBs finally take effect. __________________ Last edited by Twitch; 04-05-2006 at 12:34 PM.

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