Time Machine Consultant : Maximizing the Bf-109 in January 1943

[Shortround6]

Originally Posted by tomo pauk

Fair warning, but when compared what similar-sized, but much heavier P-38 achieved during developmet, my estimate still stands.

When doing these estimates please try to factor in not only the weight of the larger engines but the large cooleant radiators, the larger propellers, the larger cowls and etc. Also factor in the larger fuel tanks to feed the larger engines.
The much heavier P-38 also carried a much heavier armament and achieved it's performance, in part because of it's turbos, it's over 400mph speed were achieved over 20,000ft for the most part but some later models were still good for 400mph at 35,000ft.

Please note that the 395mph speed of the FW 187 was achieved using a "surface evaporative cooling system" which, while used by many race planes going back to the 20's was never used on service combat planes for good reason.

I actually like the FW 187 and wonder what it could have done with uprated JUMO 210s but turning it into a 400mph, heavily armed fighter might be more difficult than it first appears.

[Shortround6]

Originally Posted by davebender

What German bomber was powered by DB601 / DB605 engines?

Try the He 111B, D, J, and P models. granted they were made in small numbers but it was at the 1937-39 time frame when development of the FW 187 was going on and production decisions had to be made.
About 100 Do 215 bomber/recon aircraft also used the DB 601. And, of course, the Bf 110 versions used as fast bombers which would have been a bit more difficult with the smaller FW 187 airframe.
THe Me 210-410 series did have a bomb bay so what are they really?

Originally Posted by davebender

Good riddance
The Ju-88 series night fighters have shot down more enemy bombers at night then any other aircraft type in history. That's useful enough for me.
The former Me-110 factory is sitting idle. In this scenerio it will now produce Ju-88Cs

Perhaps but the JU 88s are going to be more expensive, you don't get an extra 8,000lb of airplane for free. THe early JU 88C night fighters also don't perform quite as well as the Bf 110s.

How many of these JU 88s were powered by BMW 801s which you have canceled?

All these plans would have to start being put into place in 1938-39

[davebender]

If 10 187s cost as much as 10 Ta 152s, I think the decision would be obvious.

Are you suggesting Germany should have the Ta-152 production ready during 1940, allowing a comparison with the Fw-187?

[davebender]

The Do-215 was produced in limited quantities for export. It has nothing to do with aircraft mass produced for the Luftwaffe.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by davebender

Are you suggesting Germany should have the Ta-152 production ready during 1940, allowing a comparison with the Fw-187?

No, I'm saying the 187 and by 1943 the -109 were a waste of time and resources. I'd be pumping out Ta-152s, Me-262s like there was no tomorrow.

[Shortround6]

Originally Posted by davebender

The Do-215 was produced in limited quantities for export. It has nothing to do with aircraft mass produced for the Luftwaffe.

This might be news to the Luftwaffe. While two prototypes were demonstrated to the Yugoslav Air Force they didn't buy any and the 18 ordered by Sweden were embargoed and issued to the Luftwaffe as B-0 and B-1 models. Dornier was ordered to continue production and planes were produced at a low rate until the 101st airframe came of the line in early 1941.
Now two did go to Russia and in 1942 4 were transferred to the Hungarian air Force but that does leave 99-95 that saw service with the Luftwaffe. Maybe not mass produced but certainly used in larger numbers than many other types of German aircraft that get a lot more press.

[Civettone]

I'm with Davebender on this one. I can understand why the Fw 187 wasn't chosen for production back in the late 30s as the Bf 110 was considered to be sufficient and already in production. But if the Fw 187 had been chosen it would have given the Germans a massive advantage.
What was the Fw 190 about? Basically a fighter with a radial engine. That's the reason of its existence. I have read Flyboyj saying the Fw 190 was better than the Bf 109. Yet the figures and performance reports do not support this. And the personal accounts of Luftwaffe pilots show conflicting information. Some preferred the Fw 190 some the Bf 109. But all in all, one can conclude that both were rather similar in air combat performance.
So sure it makes sense to bet on both a radial as an inline engine just like the Americans and Russians did. But there is also an answer for that: the Bf 109X which showed good performance. One can produce both versions simultaneously with hardly any extra costs.
Let's be honest about this? What was the real value of the Fw 190? What could it do what a Bf 109 couldn't? I can come up with one: high-speed ground attacks. And this was a secondary task which the Fw 187 could also perform.

Now, what I really want to add to this debate is the following. When Kurt Tank was given the order to develop a high altitude fighter he didn't start with the Ta 152H right away. His first thought was to take up the Fw 187 as he believed it would have taken a twin-engined fighter to get the perfornances needed. So back in 1943 Kurt Tank still thought the Fw 187 as a viable alternative.
I know we shouldn't get carried away by the Fw 187. It may have been fast and quite manoeuvrable but what would it have been like when fitted with Db 601s or even 605s ?? Some people put it in the 700+ kmh section but I don't know about that. On the other hand, with two DB 605s we are actually seeing TWICE the engine power of the one with two Jumo 210s. Given the Fw 187 better armament and armour I still see it way above 650 kmh.

It was tested with two DB 600s which means it could easily take two DB 601s and probably two DB 605s. The DB 603 would be too much though!

What we got then is an aircraft with unprecedented climb rate and possibly the fastest fighter aircraft until the arrival of the P-47 in 1943. But until 1944 it would be a heavy fighter which would be the main bomber interceptor and the main medium range reconaissance aircraft and also an important fighter bomber and night fighter. It would have been too small to house all the electronics but until the arrival of the Lichtenstein equipment it would have been an excellent night fighter. By saving BMW 801s enough Ju 88R/Gs could be built. But yes, a new dedicated night fighter would be needed after 1942.

But as Tank till looked at the Fw 197 as late as 1943 it seems that the design was still viable until 1944/1945. Or until the arrival of the Me 262

Kris

[riacrato]

Originally Posted by davebender

Me-109 + Fw-187 = two fighter designs.

More like one fighter + one heavy fighter. What if you run into development problems with the 109 (what actually kind of happened).

What German bomber was powered by DB601 / DB605 engines?

FW 187 A-0 were powered by Jumo 210.

Good riddance



The Ju-88 series night fighters have shot down more enemy bombers at night then any other aircraft type in history. That's useful enough for me.

First of all I think Me 110 shot down more bombers overall, but I'm no expert. Please someone with the knowledge shed some light into this.

The former Me-110 factory is sitting idle. In this scenerio it will now produce Ju-88Cs.

Which is a much larger more expensive airframe and not necessarily needed in 1940. So you significantly increased production costs for your night fighter and did the same for your daytime fighter force.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

No, I'm saying the 187 and by 1943 the -109 were a waste of time and resources. I'd be pumping out Ta-152s, Me-262s like there was no tomorrow.

I am with Flyboyj on this. If you have the right tools then stick with them and keep it simple. Any prop twin is going to be at risk from the latest single engined fighters and with the Ta-152 and the Me262 you have the right designs.
Then churn them out as quickly as possible.

The Me109 was past its best and the FW187 was
a) unknown.
b) needed development and
c) didn't have the performance edge to dominate the sky.

[tomo pauk]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

And you haven't considered a more advanced airframe, better power loading and an over all more advanced airframe. Not only was the P-38 faster, it had a service ceiling almost 10,000 feet higher.

What P-38 had was double the horse power. FW-187 with 2 x DB-601 (= 2200 to 2700 HP) wold've been more than a match for contemporary versions of P-38, both speed- and altitude-wise.


While I could agree, I'm sure the LW would look at cost and see what advanced aircraft was more cost effective to produce. If 10 187s cost as much as 10 Ta 152s, I think the decision would be obvious.

Ta-152 is not a contender here, since it was manufactured in 1945.

.

[tomo pauk]

Originally Posted by Shortround6

When doing these estimates please try to factor in not only the weight of the larger engines but the large cooleant radiators, the larger propellers, the larger cowls and etc. Also factor in the larger fuel tanks to feed the larger engines.

The much heavier P-38 also carried a much heavier armament and achieved it's performance, in part because of it's turbos, it's over 400mph speed were achieved over 20,000ft for the most part but some later models were still good for 400mph at 35,000ft.

FW-187 weighted some 2 tons less then P-38. Even if we add a full ton because of heavier engines & armament, the doubled engine power more then cures the issue.

Please note that the 395mph speed of the FW 187 was achieved using a "surface evaporative cooling system" which, while used by many race planes going back to the 20's was never used on service combat planes for good reason.

Since I was never fond to evaporative cooling, the up-engined FW-187 would've used regular one.

I actually like the FW 187 and wonder what it could have done with uprated JUMO 210s but turning it into a 400mph, heavily armed fighter might be more difficult than it first appears.

Jumo 210 would disappear before BoB if I was in charge

[davebender]

No, I'm saying the 187 and by 1943 the -109 were a waste of time and resources. I'd be pumping out Ta-152s, Me-262s like there was no tomorrow.

I agree if we are only going back to January 1943. By that point in time the Fw-190 and BMW801 engine are already in mass production.

I am suggesting the Fw-187 as an alternative path if we can go back to January 1940.

[Shortround6]

The YP-38 was about 3,000lbs heavier not 4,000lbs. that is empty weight.

It is quite likely that niether plane had armor or self sealing tanks.

Changing from Jumo 210s to DB 601s is going to add around 280lbs per engine, dry weight. It could easily be another 100lbs per propellor and so on for the cowlings, engine oil, radiators and so on. does it equel 3000lbs?
No but then we haven't doubled the engine power either. Just gone from 700hp to 1150hp. and at altitudes under 20,000ft.
The P-38 (early versions) could keep making 1150hp all the way to 25,000ft. Later versions could make 1100hp at 32500-34000ft at 2600rpm (high speed cruise). of course it took the heavy, bulky turbo-charger system to do it.
What altitude did you want the FW 187 to fight at?

"Since I was never fond to evaporative cooling, the up-engined FW-187 would've used regular one."

Yep, but since they used that system to get less drag (more speed) it means that the plane with a regular system is slower.

And then we get to the CG and load factor problems. Most of the weight is in front of the CG which requires shifting items of equipment and/or ballast and/or a rear fuselage stretch to balance things out. Not impossiable but not done at zero cost to performance. Did the FW 187 V6 have any guns or did the lack of armament help the CG issue?

Load factor. what was the load factor of the original design? just for illistrations sake let's say the FW 187 had a load factor of 7 'G's. at 11,000lbs. Now if we up the weight to 12,000lbs the load factor drops to about 6.4 'G's and at 13,000lbs it drops to 5.92 'G's.

Now maybe the FW 187 had a reserve of strength and doesn't need any beefed up structure and maybe there is no reserve of strength.

By the way, The P-38 carried 992lbs worth of guns and ammo. Heavy armament usually means heavy airplanes.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by tomo pauk

What P-38 had was double the horse power. FW-187 with 2 x DB-601 (= 2200 to 2700 HP) wold've been more than a match for contemporary versions of P-38, both speed- and altitude-wise.

Not really - as stated, just because you bolt on a more powerful engine doesn't always mean you're getting great gains in performance. Weight, systems, airframe aerodynamics have to be considered.

Originally Posted by tomo pauk

Ta-152 is not a contender here, since it was manufactured in 1945.

Actually it was around in 1944 and "could have" been available a lot sooner.

[davebender]

The original 1940 version would be primarily a bomber escort. Therefore it will operate at the same height as He-111s and Ju-88s.

Around 1943 a bomber killer version would appear. This would have engines rated for high altitude and 4 nose mounted cannon.