Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums
 



Go Back   Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums > World War II - Aviation > Aviation

Aviation Discussion on the aircraft of WWII.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-15-2006, 10:14 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Bullockracing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vivian, Louisiana
Posts: 316
The majority of the battles on the Eastern front were fought at the P-39's operationing altitude as well. A P-39 wouldn't even be able to breathe at altitudes normally used on the Western Front...

<joke> By the way, what's a P-400?
Bullockracing is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 10:31 PM   #17
IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
 
FLYBOYJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 15,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullockracing
The majority of the battles on the Eastern front were fought at the P-39's operationing altitude as well. A P-39 wouldn't even be able to breathe at altitudes normally used on the Western Front...

<joke> By the way, what's a P-400?
It's an export version of the P-39. Instead of a 37mm cannon in the nose it had a 20mm...
__________________
"IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"
FLYBOYJ is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2006, 10:40 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
Bullockracing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vivian, Louisiana
Posts: 316
Nah, it's a P-40 with a Zero on it's tail, lol
Bullockracing is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 09:44 AM   #19
Senior Member
 
loomaluftwaffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,848
lame joke

russians fought at low altitude, where the V-1710 can breathe it isn't the planes they were against cause the British (who had the P-400) were facing the same kind of plane on their own front, and they even had a more reliable cannon
__________________


"The German Luftwaffe always fought without any reserves. This is also the reason why we have pilots with extremely high numbers of victories."
- General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland"


loomaluftwaffe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2006, 11:07 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
the lancaster kicks ass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,945
Send a message via MSN to the lancaster kicks ass
that joke's been going round for years, that being said it's still about as funny as they come
__________________

"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy."
the lancaster kicks ass is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 02:03 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
R988's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Londonium
Posts: 609
If anyone has read Roald Dahls book going Solo, he was actually in the same Squadron in Greece as Pat Pattle, a bit of a forgotten campaign, the BEF was really outnumbered and outclassed in that one, quite an interesting campaign as well.

On the P-39, there are some other points to consider, most covered in the articles below.

There is a very interesting, often amusing (but rather long!) interview with a soviet pilot who flew many types here, which probably explains most of it, I'll add some quotes below.
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis...ikov/part1.htm

and some more articles on Soviet aviation lend lease aircraft here
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis...cles/index.htm

Quote:
Returning to the Airacobra, it must be noted that the British somewhat underrated it. Soviet pilots preferred the Cobra despite its many shortcomings to any other aircraft received from the Allies, including the Spitifire VB, which the British deigned to give us only in 1943.
Quote:
While completing the account of the Airacobra I in Soviet aviation, the following conclusions can be drawn. Despite a number of design deficiencies of this first model of the air frame (undercarriage weakness, engine seizures, inadequate rate of climb, tendency to flat spin), it was a threatening weapon in the hands of skilled aerial warriors. As was written in the summary of the commander of 153d (28th Guards) IAP regarding the combat work in the Voronezh and West Fronts in July-August 1942, "The Airacobra aircraft is considered by the Germans to be the most dangerous enemy and should be engaged in combat only when they [the Germans] have numerical superiority and the advantage in altitude and surprise." Therefore, the decision by the VVS command regarding preliminary serious study of the aircraft and its testing and subsequent delivery to units that had combat experience turned out to be correct. Combat tested and experienced pilots were able to master the correct tactical employment of the airplane in a minimal period of time. They learned to compensate inadequate vertical maneuver with good formation flying, echeloned by altitude (pair above pair with 100-200 meter interval). Mutual fire support also made possible minimal losses and maximum damage to the enemy. The most clear example of this was in the 19th Guards IAP, where group kills were almost three times greater than individual kills. A year later A. I. Pokryshkin, the creator of the celebrated "Kuban' bookshelf", arrived at this same "group" tactic independently and in more complete form. The conclusion regarding whom the Airacobra engaged-slow-moving transports and aging bombers, or Messerschmitts and Focke-Wulfs of the latest models, can be drawn from the statistics presented above.
and from other articles
Quote:
Russians doggedly supported their Army with massive air support.
Flying the lower altitudes gave the higher flying German aircraft a distinct advantage
and used well tested Boom and Zoom to pummel the lower flying planes.

Yet the vast majority of German Aircraft were shot down a lower altitudes.
The Russians played a bait game to attract the Germans to attack and
used B&Z tactics to force them into energy waisting turns compromising excape.
The P39 could climb with the German 109 with the deletion of the 4-30 cal up to 18K.
Quote:
Regardless of the tactics the Russians lost 2 to 1 over the whole course of the war.
But Russia could sustain the losses better with new manufactured aircraft
and their factories were never attacked by the Germans to slow production.

This was a war of attrition. Who had more war materiale and men(women) was going to win.
Especially with the Allies on the Western fronts eating away at German resources.
The attrition developed excellent Russian pilots.
__________________
Never mistake knowledge for wisdom. One helps you make a living; the other helps you make a life.
R988 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2006, 12:14 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
Twitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: City of the Angels California
Posts: 809
It all ends up like any aircraft- it was exploited for its strengths by savvy pilots who learned how to avoid its weaknesses and get the most out of it. The relatively few superior Red AF pilots that excelled with it would have excelled with any similar crate since having the right touch, intuitiveness and aggressiveness to win put them above their comrades. For the relative few that stood out with the P-39 staggering amounts of less skilled pilots met their death in it.

Both the Germans and ther Reds were doggedly tied to the old school command idea that air power was some sort of extension of artillery to be used at the whim of army commanders instead of independently. Many was the time that they were bounced while droning around waiting for army orders forbidden to stray from a central point. This spelled annihilation when they couldn't defend themselves adequately by employing normal air combat patrol techniques.

The epitaph of the P-39 and other inadequate aircraft was more in the archaic chain of command and control by the Red Army than by anything else.
__________________
Twitch is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2006, 08:22 AM   #23
Senior Member
 
Pisis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Praga Mater Urbium
Posts: 5,859
I'd only correct the table of Czechoslovak aces.

In the first list, there's that Karel Kuttelwascher scored 18 air victories, but the correct number is 20 (15 night kills on NF Hurricane). He is oficially concerned as a top scoring Czechoslovak ace.
http://cshq-czechs.wz.cz/eng_bio%20kut.html

In the 2nd, Les' list, there's mentioned Sgt. Josef František with 28 air victories. He is oficially credited with 17 RAF victories (in amazing 3 weeks!, also on Hurricane (Mk.I)). But his Battle of France campaign is covered in unclear fog. All the official documents were lost, and maybe, he even didn't serve under his real name, to avoid oppression by Gestapo against his family in Czechoslovakia. Eye witnesses (Czech Jozef Balejka and Pole Witold Lokuciewski) say he really had another 11 victories (9 airborne, 2 ground (Stukas)). Also in only three weeks!
Sgt. Josef František was - probably - Czechoslovak top scoring pilot.
__________________
"He's a menace to himself and everything else in the air... yes, birds too." - Airplane!

Memory of Nation

Why Did Hitler Want Czechoslovakia

WW2 Was A War That Had To Be Fought!

What Really Happened in Israel?

Children of Hamas

Pisis is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2006, 09:03 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
plan_D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,978
Send a message via MSN to plan_D Send a message via Yahoo to plan_D
The success of the P-39 on the Eastern Front is simply because of the operating altitudes. It was a adequete machine in combat if kept below 15,000 feet , and most combat on the Eastern Front was anywhere from there to tree-top height. While the combat in the West was amongst the bomber formations at anywhere up to 35,000 feet.
__________________
"When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004

To those in that club.
plan_D is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2006, 01:41 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
Twitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: City of the Angels California
Posts: 809
Pisis- yeah I saw that too. Everybody has a different list with varying kill amounts. Bizarre.
__________________
Twitch is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2006, 03:54 PM   #26
Minister of Whoopass
 
lesofprimus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 17,388
Actually, the # I posted for Frantisek is the correct #, with 95% of reliable sources counting his final as total being 28.... The only country that is truly undecided is Japan, and the # I have posted for Nishizawa, 147, is the # he told his family members, from his personal logbook, which is pretty much regarded as the most accurate total for him...

Marmaduke Pattle on the otherhand, his total is alittle harder to guess, but his plane captain and best freind has pretty much put a solid # up for him, according to his relativly recent logbook revealing, pretty much making his total of 62 about as accurate as can be figured out....
__________________
My IL2 Video Tribute to My Grandfather: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzN5RuNNJk

lesofprimus is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2006, 10:55 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
Bullockracing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vivian, Louisiana
Posts: 316
Anyone know of an ace flying the Boomerang?
Bullockracing is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2006, 11:27 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
Wildcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 4,543
An ace or two probably flew the Boomerang, but I'm 99% sure no one became an ace flying a Boomer. If you didn't know the Boomerang wasn't a particulary successful fighter, had good manouverbility but was under powered. Although it lacked as a fighter, it made its mark darting in and around mountains supporting the soldiers on the ground in New Guinea. Was particuly good in flushing out hidden Jap gun emplacements which it would then mark with smoke for other aircraft, notably RNZAF Corsairs, to pound the crap out of.
__________________

Wildcat is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2006, 01:31 AM   #29
Senior Member
 
Aggie08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,013
Send a message via AIM to Aggie08
I haven't heard much of the New Zealand AF. Where were they involved and for how long? The Pacific theater, of course, but which engagements?
__________________
"I had ten rockets on board, and as I wasn't particularly fond of head-on attacks, I salvoed the whole lot at him. The rockets didn't hit him but but they must have scared the bejesus out of him, for he did a steep turn to starboard... I let him have the full blast, all eight fifty-calibers. I had never seen an aircraft completely disintegrate in the air the way this Me-110 did..."
Bill Dunn, 406th Fighter Group



Matt
Aggie08 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2006, 03:05 AM   #30
Senior Member
 
Wildcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 4,543
Well I can't tell you much, but apart from the many men that fought in Europe, The RNZAF also saw action at Singapore and Malaya, The Solomons and Bougainville that I know of. The RNZAF shot down a total of 103 Japanese aircraft in the Pacific. Some aircraft the RNZAF was equipped with include P-40's, Corsairs, Avengers, Ventura's, Dauntless's, Hudson's and PBY's (That's off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others).
__________________

Wildcat is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The 9th FS Unit History... Nov 1944 - Sept 1945.... lesofprimus Stories 12 12-10-2006 07:06 PM
Air War's Greatest Aces... lesofprimus Stories 14 10-09-2006 02:45 PM
the top scoring aces of ww2 country by country. jrk Stories 31 04-23-2006 12:45 PM
Intreresting ACE Statistics..... lesofprimus Aviation 10 03-23-2005 02:07 PM
The Story of Charles Hoffman Crazy Stories 4 06-19-2004 08:50 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:46 PM.
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0
Ad Management plugin by RedTyger
Design by HTWoRKS


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116