Are Tuskegee Claims True - Aircraft of World War II

pbfoot · 12-12-2006, 05:47 PM

The claims of the Tuskegee Airmen of never allowing the loss of a aircraft escorted by them is being challenged as explained in the following article

News

Historian Says Tuskegee Airmen's Record May Not Be So Perfect
Tue, 12 Dec '06

Claims Reports Show Escorted Bombers Were Shot Down
For over 60 years, it has been a mark of pride... the claim that America's first black fighter pilots, the Tuskegee Airmen, never lost a bomber to enemy fire while flying escort runs in World War II. But one man says he has evidence that claim may be inaccurate.

William F. Holton has been the historian for Tuskegee Airmen Inc. for nearly 10 years... and he says Air Force records show at least a few bombers were shot down while under escort by the famed Red Tail Squadron. Holton first made his comments Sunday to the Montgomery (AL) Advertiser.

In an interview with the Associated Press, Holton says the unblemished record claim appears to have started in May 1945. That's when Colonel Buck Taylor wrote a letter commending Tuskegee group leader Gen. Benjamin O. Davis Jr., in which Taylor stated the group had the distinction of never losing a bomber.

"That's sort of where the whole concept emanated from," Holton said.

But that goes against several combat mission reports from the period, Holton says. He cites one report from July 1944, that states "1 B-24 seen spiraling out of formation in T/A (target area) after attack by E/A (enemy aircraft). No chutes seen to open."

Another report says "10 Me-109s attacked the rear of the bomber formation from below and left one B-17 burning, with 6 chutes seen to open."

Daniel Haulman, of the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell-Gunter Air Force Base in Montgomery, came to the same conclusion.

Holton's comments have been scornfully rebuked by surviving members of the Tuskegee Airmen, who say the historian is trying to damage the group's reputation, years after the fact.

"I think they are trying to destroy our record. What's the point now?" said former Airman Carrol Woods, adding the claims are "outrageous."

Holton said his only interest is making sure the group's history is as accurate as possible... and he notes that while the Tuskegee Airmen's record may not have been perfect, it was still very impressive.

The issue may forever remain the subject of conjecture, and deeply-held opinion... but already, the president of the Tuskegee Airmen says he will no longer claim in speeches the group never lost a bomber under its escort.

"I'm going to drop (it) until we can get this thing clarified," said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Russell Davis. "We've got some homework to do, obviously

syscom3 · 12-12-2006, 05:51 PM

So they MIGHT HAVE lost a couple of bombers. In the big scheme of things, its still an enviable record.

twoeagles · 12-12-2006, 05:54 PM

This is a huge source of pride in a country that has seen way too much
racial conflict and division. I am one for facts, but some things are
okay to let lie.

Erich · 12-12-2006, 05:55 PM

yes but AF veterans are a bit pissed off on this ongoing claim since the War. It's bunk anyhow, as Me 262's came in and shot down 15th AF bombers right under their noses ...........

pb's article came right after a posting of the same on 12 clock high discussion forum

twoeagles · 12-12-2006, 06:05 PM

If it was so blatantly obviously inaccurate, how did it get a life of
its own? I mean, if people have known for 60 years that bombers were
downed, and they are basing it all on one letter written in May, 1945, then
I would think that the these guys would sort of squirm in their seats
every time someone repeated the claim. I know I would.

Erich · 12-12-2006, 06:28 PM

how do you know they aren't. Remember this fighter group was victimized through racial interference throughout it's existance. Guess the guys want to be proud of something. Heck I would be proud that I just served during those cray chaotic missions in 44-45

R-2800 · 12-12-2006, 09:50 PM

so they MIGHT have lost a few bombers, their record even if these "claims" were real their record would still be remarkable. I would have to see some HARD evidence to belive these claims

pbfoot · 12-12-2006, 10:23 PM

I suggest that they were an average squadron no better and no worse its the adversity that they had to contend with with the segragationist US military that is commendable

lesofprimus · 12-13-2006, 08:52 AM

Ive met and talked with some Vets who were almost hostile towards this bit of Tuskeegee fame, calling them liars and frauds ect ect....

I still think it was a bit of Allied propaganda that has/d gotten out of hand....

engcompany · 12-14-2006, 02:34 AM

My grandfather told me that he flew with these guys sometimes. For the claim of no bomber's shot down under their escort? I never asked him that and he never mentioned it. The only thing he did tell me about them was that they were usually only escorts on milk runs.

wmaxt · 12-16-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by engcompany

My grandfather told me that he flew with these guys sometimes. For the claim of no bomber's shot down under their escort? I never asked him that and he never mentioned it. The only thing he did tell me about them was that they were usually only escorts on milk runs.

I don't think Berlin was ever a "Milk Run". They also got a few 262's so they wern't to shabby. If they lost a few it would not be suprising - a 109 diving out of the sun would be close to impossible to stop, but that wouldn't tarnish their reputation, just put a little patina on it. They certainly paid the price to earn their way.

wmaxt

davparlr · 12-16-2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmaxt

I don't think Berlin was ever a "Milk Run". They also got a few 262's so they wern't to shabby. If they lost a few it would not be suprising - a 109 diving out of the sun would be close to impossible to stop, but that wouldn't tarnish their reputation, just put a little patina on it. They certainly paid the price to earn their way.

wmaxt

I certainly agree with this.

pbfoot · 12-16-2006, 05:05 PM

I noticed the 262's as well certainly above the norm

bomber · 12-16-2006, 06:35 PM

Why not take the time and go the their museum....I'm sure they'd welcome your support

It's going to be great !...

It's got a movie theatre and above you as you sit in your seat is a P51 hanging from the ceiling....

I know because I've also worked for the interior designers doing it...

Simon

FLYBOYJ · 12-16-2006, 07:27 PM

For all their work, they only had one offical ace - Buddy Archer. Clinton had to pull some strings to get him offical recognized as an ace - I think this all happened around 1994.

12-12-2006, 05:47 PM	#1
pbfoot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: niagara falls Posts: 5,586	Are Tuskegee Claims True The claims of the Tuskegee Airmen of never allowing the loss of a aircraft escorted by them is being challenged as explained in the following article News Historian Says Tuskegee Airmen's Record May Not Be So Perfect Tue, 12 Dec '06 Claims Reports Show Escorted Bombers Were Shot Down For over 60 years, it has been a mark of pride... the claim that America's first black fighter pilots, the Tuskegee Airmen, never lost a bomber to enemy fire while flying escort runs in World War II. But one man says he has evidence that claim may be inaccurate. William F. Holton has been the historian for Tuskegee Airmen Inc. for nearly 10 years... and he says Air Force records show at least a few bombers were shot down while under escort by the famed Red Tail Squadron. Holton first made his comments Sunday to the Montgomery (AL) Advertiser. In an interview with the Associated Press, Holton says the unblemished record claim appears to have started in May 1945. That's when Colonel Buck Taylor wrote a letter commending Tuskegee group leader Gen. Benjamin O. Davis Jr., in which Taylor stated the group had the distinction of never losing a bomber. "That's sort of where the whole concept emanated from," Holton said. But that goes against several combat mission reports from the period, Holton says. He cites one report from July 1944, that states "1 B-24 seen spiraling out of formation in T/A (target area) after attack by E/A (enemy aircraft). No chutes seen to open." Another report says "10 Me-109s attacked the rear of the bomber formation from below and left one B-17 burning, with 6 chutes seen to open." Daniel Haulman, of the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell-Gunter Air Force Base in Montgomery, came to the same conclusion. Holton's comments have been scornfully rebuked by surviving members of the Tuskegee Airmen, who say the historian is trying to damage the group's reputation, years after the fact. "I think they are trying to destroy our record. What's the point now?" said former Airman Carrol Woods, adding the claims are "outrageous." Holton said his only interest is making sure the group's history is as accurate as possible... and he notes that while the Tuskegee Airmen's record may not have been perfect, it was still very impressive. The issue may forever remain the subject of conjecture, and deeply-held opinion... but already, the president of the Tuskegee Airmen says he will no longer claim in speeches the group never lost a bomber under its escort. "I'm going to drop (it) until we can get this thing clarified," said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Russell Davis. "We've got some homework to do, obviously

12-12-2006, 05:51 PM	#2
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,281	So they *MIGHT HAVE* lost a couple of bombers. In the big scheme of things, its still an enviable record. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

12-12-2006, 05:55 PM	#4
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,774	yes but AF veterans are a bit pissed off on this ongoing claim since the War. It's bunk anyhow, as Me 262's came in and shot down 15th AF bombers right under their noses ........... pb's article came right after a posting of the same on 12 clock high discussion forum __________________ Rip it up !

12-12-2006, 06:28 PM	#6
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,774	how do you know they aren't. Remember this fighter group was victimized through racial interference throughout it's existance. Guess the guys want to be proud of something. Heck I would be proud that I just served during those cray chaotic missions in 44-45 __________________ Rip it up !

12-12-2006, 09:50 PM	#7
R-2800 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 541	so they MIGHT have lost a few bombers, their record even if these "claims" were real their record would still be remarkable. I would have to see some HARD evidence to belive these claims __________________ www.airvictorymuseum.org "All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us... they can't get away this time." V-DUB!!!!!!! My 71 Beetle is now.....in two pieces....

12-12-2006, 05:54 PM	#3
twoeagles Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chambersburg Posts: 665	This is a huge source of pride in a country that has seen way too much racial conflict and division. I am one for facts, but some things are okay to let lie.

12-12-2006, 06:05 PM	#5
twoeagles Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chambersburg Posts: 665	If it was so blatantly obviously inaccurate, how did it get a life of its own? I mean, if people have known for 60 years that bombers were downed, and they are basing it all on one letter written in May, 1945, then I would think that the these guys would sort of squirm in their seats every time someone repeated the claim. I know I would.

12-12-2006, 10:23 PM	#8
pbfoot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: niagara falls Posts: 5,586	I suggest that they were an average squadron no better and no worse its the adversity that they had to contend with with the segragationist US military that is commendable

12-13-2006, 08:52 AM	#9
lesofprimus Minister of Whoopass Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi Posts: 17,500	Ive met and talked with some Vets who were almost hostile towards this bit of Tuskeegee fame, calling them liars and frauds ect ect.... I still think it was a bit of Allied propaganda that has/d gotten out of hand.... __________________ My IL2 Video Tribute to My Grandfather: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzN5RuNNJk

12-14-2006, 02:34 AM	#10
engcompany Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Belleville, IL Posts: 5	My grandfather told me that he flew with these guys sometimes. For the claim of no bomber's shot down under their escort? I never asked him that and he never mentioned it. The only thing he did tell me about them was that they were usually only escorts on milk runs.

12-16-2006, 05:05 PM	#13
pbfoot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: niagara falls Posts: 5,586	I noticed the 262's as well certainly above the norm

12-16-2006, 06:35 PM	#14
bomber Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 211	Why not take the time and go the their museum....I'm sure they'd welcome your support It's going to be great !... It's got a movie theatre and above you as you sit in your seat is a P51 hanging from the ceiling.... I know because I've also worked for the interior designers doing it... Simon

12-16-2006, 07:27 PM	#15
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,050	For all their work, they only had one offical ace - Buddy Archer. Clinton had to pull some strings to get him offical recognized as an ace - I think this all happened around 1994. __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

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