% of Verfiable Victories

[Lucky13]

This is darn interesting fellas, sucking up like a sponge....
What does these lists say about 1Lt James P Hagerstrom? I've seen somewhere that he's one of only 7 pilots that become an Ace in two wars. When did and what kind of machines did he shoot down?

[102first_hussars]

Originally Posted by Rob Romero

Post was too long -so I had to edit out Bishop.

Billy Bishop (55 Credited Kills / 72 Official Victories)
20 of 55 Claims ( 36.4%) -more recent evaluation of German Records than at billybishop.net/bishopP.html as per Al Lowe 6 Oct 98
2 of 55 Claims ( 03.6%) -It seems highly unlikely to me that such exaggeration would be tolerated by his squadron


If you've got info on the other two, I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

Rob

Well Off the top of my head, Buzz Beurling a canadian Pilot with the RAF over malta shot down 29 german planes

Im gonna look up Barker, because i always forget his first name

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by JoeB

1 I don't understand that logic, you have no idea how accurate a source is, you've been presented evidence it's *deliberately* fudged, but it's the only one around, so what the hey, let's quote it.

Yes let's quote it and then figure out if it's indeed accutrate - that's my point.

Originally Posted by JoeB

I don't know what other lists you are talking about that purport to cross check Soviet claims and US losses in Korea, what are those?

They were put out by people in Russia and it shows that 625 F-86s were shot down during Korea, I'll try to find them...

Originally Posted by JoeB

There's this list, but it simply lists Soviet claims. It has some omissions (the Soviet source it uses omits some claims that other Soviet records have) and some mistakes about which units claimed, but it basically conveys a historical fact: what the Soviets *claimed*. It doesn't pretend to cross check that against US info and list what the Soviets *really shot down*. There's nothing dishonest about the way this list was complied, a huge distinction in my book.
Russian Claims the Korean War 1950-53

OK

Originally Posted by JoeB

3. See "And Kill MiG's" by Drendel, and "Air War Over North Vietnam" by Topczer, US and Vietnamese sides. There were numerous days where multiple kills were claimed by one side or another. If you compare the Topczer list of VPAF claims to Drendel's list of US losses to MiG's (which is about the same as the more detailed info in Hobson, "Vietnam Air Losses") you'll see quite a number of times VPAF claimed and US lost but VPAF claimed more than was lost. So which particular VPAF pilot's claim is verifed by a real US loss is a real issue, as it usually is for analyzing invidual claims.

Then you would have to go with the the US side - as stated most of the aerial action was being surveyed by EC-121s. I would also believe that if the NVAF had unsubstaciated multipe claims, it was because their AA batteries were taking credit for a kill that might of been carried out by an aircraft. By 1972 there were hundreds of AA around Kep Airbase and it was probably very confusing who or what brought down a US aircraft from the NVAF perspective. I have "And Kill Migs."

Originally Posted by JoeB

But back to basics about sources, the same guy who wrote the Vietnamese aces list writes clearly fudged stuff about other air wars. Third time, look at this link and tell me it his analysis could be the result of random mistakes, or tell me what you disagree with in my analysis, specifically.
Korean War Ace Sutyagin's Score
Why would I believe or use his results on other aces or other wars (other Soviet ace scores, Vietnamese ace scores, AGIC Korea list, all by the same person), unless I verified them some other way?

Joe

They maybe you should put together another site clarifying those who fudged these lists....

[FLYBOYJ]

Here JoeB

Korean Air War