VVS Vs. RAF

[plan_D]

Sorry, that was my bad. I haven't seen anything about the 40mm destroying the stability of the Hurricane. I'm pretty sure if there was a problem in the IID, it'd have been solved in the IV.

[delcyros]

After, what I read, Glider, The Stirling wasn´t in regular service prior to feb. 1942. If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me ( I am not sure in the reliabilty of the source). Exclude the He-111. The Ju-88, Do-215 and Ju-87 (as the Pe-2) were more precise because they could dive in or attack at an shallow angle, where the Halifax, Stilings and Wellington couldn´t. At level bombing, the planes differ not much, but the RAF bombers have a better payload.
I must agree to disagree, the use of the bombers you describe is a more reasonable from the view of the RAF. I certainly also agree that the Halifax and Stirlings could protect therself much better than the Luftwaffe bomber. But there are less RAF bombers, this can be a problem over Russia. Strike altitude would bring them in the proper MiG-3 altitude at about 15.000 ft,I would counter them with Mig´s attacking the escorts and waves of I-16 and Pe-3 to deal with the heavys. While in the meantime Yak-1, Lagg-3 and I-16/I-153 together with Il-2 attacking the ground forces or the returning bombers over their bases (best hunting ground: over enemys airfields).
The Hurricane with 4 20mm is a very good GA-plane with self defending capabilities.
The recoil forces you may calculate on your own. Take the single round weight with the muzzle velocity plus some 20 percent for the gaz effects, voilá. Mounted in the wings, the 40mm is suspect to make prolonged aiming impossible because of the recoil effects. In the centerline it wouldn´t effect that much the behavior of the Hurricane. Such problems cannot be solved easily (The Fw-190 A-4/U-15 with two 30mm MK-103 under the wings suffered from bad recoil forces so the guns have been removed in most cases).
The most important figure is still not taken into consideration, the numbers of combat sorties. The presence of enemy planes in the own airspace and the absence of own planes there define air superiority. The VVS can field much more combat sorties than the RAF, and it did. This is often described by waves of waves (and losses of losses) but in the end it ensured air superiority in the late part of the war and in 1941 it took down the Luftwaffe air superiority over Moscow (while in the same timeframe the losses of the VVS are expected to be very high).

[Glider]

Delc
The Sterling flew its first missions on the 10th February 1941 and during 1941 were often used in daylight raids as the bait to get the Germans to come up and fight. It started to come unstuck when heavy long ranged raids were started at the end of 1941 against Germany and Italy where its lower bombload (3,500lbs) to Germany and the difficulty it had in climbing to any height (when going over the Alps) to Italy. became a problem.
Sounds like we agree to diagree over fighters and escort. Your ideas sound good but it would take a lot of organisation to get everyone in the right place at the right time when the performance of each plane would differ and most didn't carry a radio. Throw in a bit of cloud and the USSR have a problem
In numbers we certainly had fewer Halifax's and Sterlings as they entered service during this period but we had plenty of Wellingtons.

However we both agree over the use of 40mm on the Hurricane. I am sure I read somewhere that the firing of the 40's meant that in the real world, you only had one shot as the shock of firing pushed the nose down by 5 degrees. This would rule out firing automatically and they used the 303 as a 'range finder'. As I said before I would stick with the 4x20's.

Numbers of sorties. Bit of an unknown this. If the RAF were only fighting the USSR then we would have a lot more squadrons available. Not as many as the USSR but it would be a lot closer. The RAF proved themselves capable of generating large sortie rates and generally the planes were robust so short term sortie rates should be able to cope. However you are I am sure, thinking of the long haul, over a period of months.
I think that we would do better than the Germans. We had much better PR abilities and could put considerably more pressure on the Russian infrastructure. So our strikes would be more effective and this would impact the Russian sortie rates.

I should also remind you that we were the world leaders in radio intercept and code breaking. At a tactical level this isn't much help. However as mentioned before, the USSR tend to go for the big push, the set piece battle. We would get warning of these and with our PR we would be better placed to react.

Would it be enough? I really dont know but I think it would. The USSR had its vast size to support it in action, we had a Commonwealth. I think the two would balance out and the final advantage would go to the more technically advanced and better trained RAF

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by arras

DerAdlerIstGelandet >> I just reacted to your:

I think you write preaty clear to understand, but if I missunderstud you than I appologize. As for computer gaming it was not pointed directly to you.

No you read that correctly, and I stand by what I said. The Il-2 may have been able to take punishment because of her armament, but that does not mean that she was not an easy target. She was easily out maneuevered, she was slow and was no match in an all out fight with a Bf-109F, G, K or Fw-190A or D.

[delcyros]

All possible, Glider.
You made a point in the radio communication. From what I know almost all VVS planes had radio on board but radio is defined differntly in the VVS. In fact it means that nearly all had a device to receive orders and the squad leaders as well as ground instructors only had sending devices on board. This remained until early 1943, which is quite a long time. It implies a higher degree of unflexibility of VVS ops and in fact could explain why the VVS had such problems even when they sometimes outnumbered the Luftwaffe in 1941/1942.
If you take commonwealth squads for the RAF we have a closer situation, also. But let´s keep it simple and take the RAF, only. what about the numbers? I will search for VVS fielded numbers in 1941, please try to find what was avaiable in fighter and bomber command (we may exclude the coastal command here, suitable bomber planes could be added to the RAF bombers, keep in mind that there would be still a number of planes in the home defense) over the year 1941 on different theatres. The VVS numbers are expected to be higher because of the rapid advance of german ground forces in 1941 (which led to dismantle production lines, esspeccially those of the newer planes like Yak-1, Il-2 and Lagg-3, and rebuild them beyond range). The british ground forces would surely have more problems with the soviets which would give the VVS more time to bring out bigger numbers.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It implies more than just inflexibility but just plain stupid.

[Glider]

Delc, I will do what I can re numbers, but the reference to the Commonwealth was more to do with the support. For example a lot of British pilots were trained around the world e.g. in Canada. They also supplied a lot of machines and supplies and were areas which are obviously safe from attack and with space to train people well.

Deralder, I don't get your last posting can I ask you to rephrase it?

[Nonskimmer]

Originally Posted by Glider

For example a lot of British pilots were trained around the world e.g. in Canada. They also supplied a lot of machines and supplies...

And personnel.

[Glider]

Nonskim. I wasn't forgetting the people, who are always the most precious of all, but in this context delc was trying to keep it to the RAF.

My mother was engaged to a Norwegian who was killed when his ship was torpedoed, and her father was sunk three times once in WW1 and twice in WW2, so the personal side is always close to us.

[plan_D]

Yes, del, we're not leaving the Commonwealth out of this because if you went to war with Britain you went to war with it's empire too. Every Commonwealth country would provide man and machine to fight for Britain. You only don't want the Commonwealth involved because it puts a little strain on your one and only reason that the Soviet Union would win, numbers.

[delcyros]

Well, Plan_D, it would be hard for me to prove that this is not my main motivation, but originally we wanted to keep it all simple. If you take Commonwealth, we have a different situation with key war theatres in Pakistan/Kasachstan and a probability that china, serbia, bulgaria and slovakia entering the soviet side. I don´t want it to be this way, it´s almost even now pure speculation and this has to be underlined.
If we factor VVS and RAF only, we have more insight to compare these airforces, or not? Stay it a simple way, we are not comparing worlds just airforces, we also left the economy out here.

[Glider]

Delc
I am more than happy to keep it to the RAF, that was the arrangement and to be honest the only point it impacts is the numbers. It makes no difference to the aircraft themselves.
Its similar to the aircraft where I have kept away from American aircraft used by the RAF.
Afterall one of the great unknowns is how would the germans have done if they had only been fighting the USSR. An extra 4-500 planes at the right time in the right place could have made all the difference

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Glider

Deralder, I don't get your last posting can I ask you to rephrase it?

I was commenting on Delc's post about the Russian planes having "radios" that could recieve but not respond much into 1943.

[Udet]

It is crystal clear Mr. Delcyros has quite a strong opinion on the capabilities of the VVS.

Keeping in mind no air force, at all, is a perfect organization is that we must assess the strong and weak points each one observes, as it has been pretty much done in this thread.

Now, Mr. Delcyros is completely confident when affirming the VVS made a very significant contribution for "halting" the Luftwaffe during the winter of 1941 around and over Moscow.

He states soviet radar stations made an excellent work vectoring VVS fighter formations to intercept German formations. This deserves further underlining and remarking for it is, to a very important extent, untrue.

I have several books on the evolution of radar and its usage during WWII amongst the many combatant stations.

You might be surprised to learn that when it comes to electronics, the soviets were located well behind the Brits and the Germans. As the war progressed and the Germans were getting pushed west, forward VVS airfields hardly had any of such equipment, even when they had Lend-Lease radar sets at their disposal in their stock.

Do you know, Mr. Delcyros, why the USAAF decided to cancell shuttle bombing missions? For the fundamental reason of the absolute lack of guaranties for their planes and crews in soviet airfields: no radar, weak ground control and weak air defense.

He russians had some stuff of their own when the war commenced, but most radar sets used by the soviet VVS and navy were Lend-Leased items of USA manufacture.


You refuse to acknowledge the VVS did not play any significant role in halting the Luftwaffe in the Moscow area during 1941.

Yep, there were soviet radar stations by the time, but from where is it that you get they could vector their formations to intercept the Germans?

Did you know that hardly one year before, Battle of Britain, the British radar system of the entire south and east parts of the island did not perform as the British history tells?

"We could see the German formations even when they were assemblying after taking off over France."

Well, further researches proved that AT LEAST 50% of the times Hurricane and Spitfire units vectored to intercept following radar guidance, simply and flatly found nothing.


December 7, 1941, while the Germans were around Moscow, a team of operators of a radar station in Hawaii completely failed to interpret what the screen was showing them: a formation of carrier air-borne bombers and fighters approaching Oahu.

What makes you think soviet radar operators were more skilled in the art of interpreting radar information than the guys of the RAF and USAAF were?

The RAF had a bunch of ancient Swordwfish equipped with small radar sets in the open cokcpit for tracking and attacking axis vessels supplying Rommel in North Africa.

Did the soviets ever came close to fit whatever of their planes with electronics?

The miserable weather of November, December and January of 1941 in the USSR hindered air raids and air support operations during the vast majority of days. Most Luftwaffe losses were caused by the cold, on the ground due to the open conditions of forward Luftwaffe bases, and not soviet fighters.

Now, you might bring forward the argument of number of sorties flown by the VVS during such period, still, soviet pilots -no matter how many missions might have flown- lacked skills to fly under such miserable conditions, just like the pilots of any other air force of the planet.

Noteworhty to mention is the fact that when said winter ended, the main axis of the German war effort in the USSR switched south: eastern ukraine/don river bend and the caucasus entrance. The Luftwaffe which had been active in bigger numbers in Mitte Gruppe, likewise, saw its main effort now in the south, and simply retook the role it had played before the winter of 1941: the slaughter of the VVS.

[Glider]

Thanks for clarifying the post.