VVS Vs. RAF

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Originally Posted by del

If we factor VVS and RAF only, we have more insight to compare these airforces, or not? Stay it a simple way, we are not comparing worlds just airforces, we also left the economy out here.

but during WWII the RCAF and RAAF in europe acted under the RAF (well bomber command atleast), surely they should be counted??

[Nonskimmer]

That's entirely up to you all of course, but without RCAF and RAAF augmentation the bomber force would've just been that much smaller. Just a thought. We do like to be counted where applicable.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i feel it's only right you are counted in this case.....

[plan_D]

Glider do you know what squadrons because all I've got here is very sketchy information on the CBI theatre squadrons, some of it is over-lapping;

From December 1941 - May 1942;

113th Squadron. Blenheim IV based at Toungoo.
45th Squadron. Blenheim IV and IVF based at Toungoo.
17th Squadron. Hurricane IIA based at Rangoon.
135th Squadron. Hurricane IIA based at Rangoon.
28th Squadron. Lysander based at Lahore.
139th Squadron. Hudson based at Anadman Islands
11th Squadron. Blenheim IV - I don't know where they were based.

That's all I've got. All though I've got information on squadrons of Buffalo and Hurricane I, I don't know their squadron numbers. I've also got information on rag-tag collections of aircraft flying together. During early January 1942, 267 Group had three squadrons of Hurricane but they only had 10 flight worthy Hurricanes between them.

[Glider]

Plan D
Mohawk IV No 5 Sqdn
Lysander No 20 Squad
Hurricane II No 30 Squad
DC2 No 31 Squad
Blenhiem IV No 45 Squad plus 211 Sqdn (Far East)
Havoc No 62 Squad (This I doubt as its too new)
Wellington No 99 Squad
Audax No 146 Squad
Catalina No 202, 205 Squad
Hudson No 233 Squad
Vilderbeast No 273 Squad

I have the following on your details
113 Sqd on Blenhiem in May 1942
17sqd as a Far East unit on Hurricane IIa officially described as destroyed in Burma in May 1942
135 and 136 on Hurricane II in India from May 1942 before that far east
28 Squad On Lysanders in Sept 41 and Hurricane II in Jan 42 as a Far East unit then destroyed in May 42 Part of India from Jan 43
139 Sqdn Another Indian unit on Hudson in Jan 42 but in May 42 in the UK as a Blenheim unit
11 Sqdn An Indian Blenhiem unit from May 42, In Jan 42 it was in N Africa

60 sqdn on Buffalo/Blenhiem was destroyed in Singapore
67 sqdn on Buffalo/Hurricane destroyed in Rangoon
100Sqdn on Vilderbeast destroyed in Singapore
243 Sqdn on Buffalo destroyed in Singapore
258 sqdn on Hurricane destroyed in Java

I don't have any info on bases. Hope this helps

[plan_D]

Excellent, do you think I would be right in assuming all the Blenheim squadrons had Blenheim IVs?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

but during WWII the RCAF and RAAF in europe acted under the RAF (well bomber command atleast), surely they should be counted??

I agree they should be counted here in this case.

[Glider]

PlanD In most cases yes but they fought in anything that would fly and some of the squadrons had converted from the Mk 1 only a few months before.
Put it another way a Blenhiem 1 may not be much but she's better than an Audax

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Did the CBI pretty much get the stuff that was replaced in Europe?

[plan_D]

Anything old and used was delivered to the CBI. Many of the squadrons were recorded as flying Hurricane IIA but in most cases they'd go up with a collection of Hurricane I and IIA with some Buffaloes in there too.

Many of the squadrons arrived from North Africa to try and save Singapore then Burma just to be destroyed by the IJAAF and IJN. The worst thing was the lack of spares, during the early months of 1942 there were three Hurricane squadrons that only had 10 flight worthy aircraft between them!

[arras]

Udet >>

December 7, 1941, while the Germans were around Moscow, a team of operators of a radar station in Hawaii completely failed to interpret what the screen was showing them: a formation of carrier air-borne bombers and fighters approaching Oahu.

You are wrong. It was not radar operators who failed, radar was clearly showing what operator identified as big group of aircrafts moving quickly toward island. Upset operator imediately contacted comanding oficier but there was none to be found. When finaly he managed to reach somebody he was told to calm down, that what he see is flight of new B17 going to land at base (B17 later apeared over island during attack and some were shot down) and to shut down radar and go home. It was command who failed not radar operator.

I have to add that radar was in testing period, been operated only few ours per day and nobody had experience with it.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That is the account that I can recall.

[plan_D]

That's the story I've heard also, he was told to calm down and not let it worry him.

[Udet]

Arras:

I am aware of the version you commented regarding Pearl Harbor.

Yet, it does not take 1 single miligram of susbstance away from my view; call it as you wish, they failed to acknowledge the approaching danger.


I am strongly confident when affirming soviet radar operators were not any better than the Brits, Germans and USAers.

Mr. Delcyros has failed to prove the Luftwaffe suffered "heavy losses" at the hands of radar vectored soviet fighters during the winter of 1941.

You will not find any sound evidence of such assertion for there is none available.

You co-relate number of missions of flown with assured success. It can be a misleading pattern.

I know what a winter in the Moscow area is, and I can tell you that the most seasoned pilots of the present-day Aeroflot can wet their pants when approaching Sheremetyevo in poor weather conditions.

It is not difficult to at least see in your mind what the conditions most soviet pilots faced during such winter. Soviet political thugs yelling at them to take off and shoot down fascist snakes. Soviet pilots arguing on the terrible conditions most days observed during those weeks. The thugs accusing them of betraying the motherland.

That they might have flown many missions can be true, but what was it that they achieved.

Now, is the issue of radar vectored soviet interceptors in 1941 some sort of an emerging myth?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes but the radar operators acknoledged the threat that the radar told him. The whole sitution of Pearl Harbor was botched by the Higher Command and that is why some rightfully lost there jobs.