VVS Vs. RAF

[plan_D]

I don't want the discussion to die out because it's a good one.

The VVS didn't need a heavy bomber force because it had the USAAF and RAF doing all the dirty work for them in the skies over Europe. If it had been VVS against the RAF, the VVS would need to deploy heavy bombers against the RAF.

The RAF had a better high altitude force. It's bombers would get through Soviet air space almost unhampered because the VVS didn't have any high altitude capable fighters, they didn't need them because the Luftwaffe was generally intercepting or attacking at low altitudes.

The RAF did however have effective low altitude fighters, much more capable than VVS aircraft. The Spitfire Mk.IX and XIV were better in their respective times than what the VVS could field.

The night campaigns would be all to the RAF because of the Mosquito being the best night-fighter of the war, the VVS had nothing to field against it.

The Mosquito could effectively hit with precision during the day, just like it did during the day against the Luftwaffe.

The RAF were only inaccurate in 1940-1941. Electronics began to play their part in 1942 and all the way until the end. The Soviet Union provides many large targets for the RAF, all within range of the RAF Heavy Bombers. The VVS could not strike back...

The bombing campaign over Europe crippled the German war machine, the production numbers only rise because A.Speer put Germany on to full War Time production in 1942. Had he done so and the Allied bomber offensive never happened, the production numbers would have probably been doubled!

In November 1944 (I think the month is right), the RAF dropped more tonnage of bombs on Europe than the US 8th AF.

All the VVS had was a supremecy in numbers, something the RAF dealt with in the BoB against the Luftwaffe.

[lesofprimus]

I actually dont see where the discussion would be planD... There really shouldnt be a debate about what u posted above. Its all true....

As a side bar, why is it that the VVS had many more pilots with 30 or more kills???? It wasnt because of better machinery, that much is obvious... Targets of opportunity??? #'s of sorties??? Time in the cockpit??? Quality of the opposition????

[plan_D]

Del, disagrees.

More targets. The Luftwaffe was largely on the defensive on the Western Front after the BoB and then, again, after Africa. All the offensive strength went to Russia. Offensive strength consisting of Stukas, He-111s, Ju-88s and Do-17s....EASY TARGETS!

[Soren]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

As a side bar, why is it that the VVS had many more pilots with 30 or more kills???? It wasnt because of better machinery, that much is obvious... Targets of opportunity??? #'s of sorties??? Time in the cockpit??? Quality of the opposition????

I can tell you why: Soviet Propoganda

As a side note: Many Soviet kills were confirmed by, guess what.. the Partisans ! (So much for a reliable confirmation system, wouldn't you say )

[lesofprimus]

I really dont doubt that Kozhedub and Rechkalov and Pokryskin were the leading Aces for the VVS, but the #'s for just about every country are always slightly questionable, with the Soviets slightly more critiqued...

OK maybe alittle more than slightly...

But, a kill that is confirmed by a wingman is a kill.... If the propoganda machine was in full effect, the #'s of kills would have been similar to the German claims, not in the 50's and 60's...

And Propoganda aside, these guys were some of the greatest fighter pilots to EVER squeeze the trigger........ They fought against some of the greatest machines to ever fly with pieces of shiit for planes, and tactics that they practically made up as the fought for their lives....

We have discussed and posted so much info on the VVS and its plight against the Luftwaffe..... Makes for some great reading....

[plan_D]

It's harder to destroy a fighter than it is a bomber. The VVS had a sky full of Luftwaffe bombers with few fighter escorts. The fighters being sent to the West for intercept duties.

It makes for a simple target rich environment.

[lesofprimus]

Here is the full (and long) list of Ivan Kozhedub's victories:

Date Type
6 July 1943 1 Ju 87
7 July 1943 1 Ju 87
9 July 1943 2 Bf 109 (in 2 sorties)
9 Aug 1943 1 Bf 109
14 Aug 1943 2 Bf 109
16 Aug 1943 1 Ju 87
22 Aug 1943 1 Fw 190
9 Sept 1943 1 Bf 109
30 Sept 1943 1 Ju 87
1 Oct 1943 2 Ju 87
2 Oct 1943 3 Ju 87
4 Oct 1943 1 Bf 109
5 Oct 1943 2 Bf 109 (in 2 sorties)
6 Oct 1943 1 Bf 109
10 Oct 1943 1 Bf 109
12 Oct 1943 2 Ju 87, 1 Bf 109
29 Oct 1943 1 He 111, 1 Ju 87
16 Jan 1944 1 Bf 109
30 Jan 1944 1 Ju 87, 1 Bf 109
14 March 1944 1 Ju 87
21 March 1944 1 Ju 87
11 April 1944 1 Bf 109
19 April 1944 1 He 111
28 April 1944 1 Ju 87
29 April 1944 2 Hs 129
3 May 1944 1 Ju 87
31 May 1944 1 Fw 190
1 June 1944 1 Ju 87
2 June 1944 1 Hs 129
3 June 1944 3 Fw 190 (in 2 sorties)
7 June 1944 1 Bf 109
22 Sept 1944 2 Fw 190
25 Sept 1944 1 Fw 190
16 Jan 1945 1 Fw 190
10 Feb 1945 1 Fw 190
12 Feb 1945 3 Fw 190
19 Feb 1945 1 Me 262
11 March 1945 1 Fw 190
18 March 1945 2 Fw 190
22 March 1945 2 Fw 190
23 March 1945 1 Fw 190
17 April 1945 2 Fw 190

39 Top of the line fighters, and 23 Bombers.........

Kozhedub was one hell of a pilot dude.....

[plan_D]

I know. I'm talking about VVS pilots in general.

[mosquitoman]

If the RAF was on the offensive, it could be swamped with fighters- Russia has a large population so there would be a lot of reserves which Britain doesn't as much even if the colonies are included. The RAF might get worn down simply through attrition

[plan_D]

The VVS had nothing capable of fighting at the height the RAF would be operating at. Remember the RAF would also be operating at night with the NF Mosquito as escort.

What could the VVS possibly put in the sky with any chance of detecting, attacking and destroying incoming RAF bombers?

[lesofprimus]

Ummm.... At night???? Nothing........

[mosquitoman]

The Tu-2 and Pe-2 could probably converted into nightfighters but I don't know how good Russian in-plane radar was

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by mosquitoman

The Tu-2 and Pe-2 could probably converted into nightfighters but I don't know how good Russian in-plane radar was

Russian Radar

I don't think the Russians had any airborne radar systems in place until after WW2. See this link

:http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRu...Radar_WWII.htm

[mosquitoman]

I didn't think so but I wasn't that sure

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i definately think this goes to the RAF, mostly for the reasons already outlined, they had no heavy bomber which they would need against us, and they were practically defenceless by night, and remember the RAF would proberly incluse all our colonies, so when you bring it canada and australia we're talking huge numbers...................