Waiting to be found

A4K · 03-27-2008, 05:00 AM

Great site Nyaco! what do you reckon the odds are of recovering thet Privateer?

timshatz · 03-27-2008, 08:06 AM

Odds are not good on the Privateer. It's very odd but the US Navy still claims any aircraft that have crashed, ditched or otherwise been abandoned, as Navy Property. So, if you do pull one up, it is only a matter of time before somebody from the Dept of the Navy shows up and claims it as theirs. Has lead to some pretty nasty court cases.

The Air Force, on the other hand, has no claim on any of it's wrecks after the site has been sanatized for human remains and weapons.

MONDARIZ · 03-27-2008, 08:45 AM

The US air force lost their records in a fire in 1961 and have accepted, that they have little possibility of claiming aircraft from before that year (they are technically abandoned because ownership can't be fully established).

The US navy on the other hand, have all their records. AFIK the navy have no authority to "abandon" material that belong to the federal government. That means that even if an aircraft was "stricken" from the records during the war, its technically not abandoned by the navy, as they legally can't make that call.

Thus any aircraft that ever flew in the navy, is still considered navy property (even if it has been lost for 60 years, and the navy have made no attempt to find, or recover, it), and its something they have (and will again) taken to court - and won!

Navy Shipwrecks and Aircraft Losses

Legally they are also entitled to decline recovery, even if its normal maritime practice to salvage/recover vessles in distress (such as an aircraft under water). That means that if you ask for recovery permission, it will be declined, and if you simply just recover it (without asking), the navy will take possession of the aircraft.

I have no idea, why the navy insists on this, other that they technically can't give away federal property. The federal government don't even care anymore, but the navy does.

Here is a famouse case:

International Aircraft Recovery v. United States (11th Cir. 2000)

A4K · 03-28-2008, 04:23 AM

I can't believe there are no remaining TBD-1's above sea-level! You'd think it would be in the Navy's interest to preserve it's history., I'm sure if it was a Royal Navy aircraft, it'd have been pulled up and restored years ago!

DOUGRD · 03-28-2008, 02:45 PM

Has anyone ever documented all the aircraft sitting in the English Channel after the end of WW2? I have always wondered about this. How many times have you read about aircraft ditching or crashing in the Channel? I'll bet there's quite a few.

timshatz · 03-28-2008, 04:20 PM

Probably hundreds of them dougrd, maybe even thousands. Think that it was a major theatre of war for 5 full years and you have every mark of every aircraft used in full front line operation out there. Spitfires, Hurricanes, Me-109s, Me-110s, FW-190s, to say nothing of the bombers, fighters, transports, miscellaneous, ect. US, UK, Axis, everybody who came with an air force left something in the channel.

Hell, Glenn Miller is somewhere under that body of water.

DOUGRD · 03-29-2008, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timshatz

Probably hundreds of them dougrd, maybe even thousands. Think that it was a major theatre of war for 5 full years and you have every mark of every aircraft used in full front line operation out there. Spitfires, Hurricanes, Me-109s, Me-110s, FW-190s, to say nothing of the bombers, fighters, transports, miscellaneous, ect. US, UK, Axis, everybody who came with an air force left something in the channel.
Hell, Glenn Miller is somewhere under that body of water.

It's funny you mentioned Glenn Miller because when I first started working for "Webers Aero Repair" here in Alexandria, MN. 2 1/2 years ago I got in on the restoration of a Norseman which is the type aircraft Glenn Miller was flying to the continent in.

MONDARIZ · 03-29-2008, 01:13 AM

The English Channel and north sea (along the Dutch, German, Danish, Norwegian and the English coast) still produce "new" wrecks every year.

The surge in recreational diving and the growing interest in aviation archeology (using side scan sonar and other equipment now in a affordable price range), has helped locating many missing wrecks.

Unfortunatly many have been mangled by fishing trawls, or simply deteriorated due to corrosion and strong currents. Saltwater is not a great media for storing aircraft.

It would be a great idea to collect those wrecks in a database, but many diving clubs (and wreck hunter teams) keep their finds pretty private, so it would be hard to get the information. Also, most saltwater wrecks are somewhat beyond restoration.

What I personally would find interesting, is a database of wrecks located in European freshwater lakes. There might not be as many as in the sea, but at least they could be in better condition.

Around here (Denmark) we had a He-111 ditching in a big lake, staying afloat long enough for the crew to escape, then sinking. I don't know if anybody has tried to locate it (or even if the Germans recovered it, as they normally would - but there are suggestions that they didn't). I would love a weekend with a side scan sonar on that lake

Anyway, a good place to find wreck information, is diving websites, or even just email your local diving club.

Should we try to post what we can find (with pictures)?

wilbur1 · 03-29-2008, 10:25 AM

Great idea, someone posted a site here on another thread that was in the pto that had a ton of pics of japanese ships and stuff gotta remember where its at

MONDARIZ · 03-30-2008, 01:02 AM

Here is a start on the Saltwater wreck collection.

B17- Bomber

Douglas TBD-1 that the Navy refuse to be salvaged

Njaco · 03-30-2008, 06:01 AM

and another 2 sites about wrecks in the ETO.

Getting a Plane Wreck JU-52 out of the water - AOL Video

Aircraft Crash Sites at Sea

MONDARIZ · 03-30-2008, 06:40 AM

Seems to me, that they were lucky that JU-52 didn't break. Can't really trust structure after 60 years in saltwater.

Catch22 · 03-30-2008, 10:36 AM

I don't have any pics of it, but at the Air Museum here they're restoring a Lockheed Ventura. We also have a Mossie (from 418 ), a Sabre, Vampire, DC-3, and a bunch of other planes.

pbfoot · 03-30-2008, 10:54 AM

I know some guys that are doing a TBM Avenger from lake Erie it landed on the ice and fell through with little damage , fresh water no corrosion a little current and the Zebra mussels(thanks Europe) will fall off

MONDARIZ · 03-31-2008, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

I know some guys that are doing a TBM Avenger from lake Erie it landed on the ice and fell through with little damage , fresh water no corrosion a little current and the Zebra mussels(thanks Europe) will fall off

How are they getting along with the navy regarding the salvage (or is it a Canadian TBM)?

Please see if you can find a link, or something else, I would like to know more about that TBM.