Water injection on US fighter when first combat use? - Aircraft of World War II

Vincenzo · 07-18-2009, 05:09 AM

I looking for date of first use, in combat, of water injection on US fighters, all the models.
thank you

the US fighters with water injection incombat maybe FM-2, F6F, F4U, P-47

river · 07-19-2009, 09:24 AM

Hi,

The F4U-1 started without water injection, but from about the 1550th unit it got the R2800-8W (W = water injection) engine. So not sure what date that would be.

The P47C-5 got the R2800-59W engine around 30 July 1943.

The F6F-5 got the R2800-10W engine around 19 June 1944.

Not sure about the FM-2.

Not sure about other engines by Pratt & Whtiney or Wright, which may of had W/I beforehand.

river

Vincenzo · 07-19-2009, 09:57 AM

thank for reply
i don't understand the date are the first combat with water injection on or for production of fighter with water injection?

i thinked that first variant of thunderbolt with -59 was D-4

Timppa · 07-19-2009, 10:52 AM

According to Gabreski's bio the P-47's built from D-10 and beyond had water injection built in. The earlier planes were retrofitted with this system (along with paddle blade propellers) during January 1944.

plan_D · 07-19-2009, 10:55 AM

I don't want to hijack the thread, but you've got me interested now. I know how water injection works; I was just wondering how effective it was in the war...power increase, how long it could be used etc. etc. (this is obviously different for different engines, a general overview would be nice) and did the Americans have methanol in their mixture , like the German MW50? Freezing is not nice!

vanir · 07-19-2009, 04:13 PM

Running on memory and various sources...

Any alcohol based anti freeze could be used, not sure which one the US chose.
Gabreski said something like a 150hp increase at low altitude was readily available. I think calculated figures are for around 300hp increase (which probably means something like 180hp delivered).

For use during flight, generally operators guidelines are for a 5-10min use on increased boost and water injection, whatever the type but the preferred duration is 1-2min at a time with a good cooldown period between uses. Often extreme emergency use only is specified. Sometimes specific supercharger gears are specified.

For use during take off engagement is automatic and guaged on the throttle, designed to shorten the take off run under heavy loading (for carrier operations with the Corsair for example), and inherently has about a 1min use. You could probably get away with 5min safely if you needed to get up some speed quickly.

drgondog · 07-20-2009, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timppa

According to Gabreski's bio the P-47's built from D-10 and beyond had water injection built in. The earlier planes were retrofitted with this system (along with paddle blade propellers) during January 1944.

That is also supported by my data on the 355th. Both water injection and paddle blade pros came with P-47-10's that arrived at Steeple Morden in Feb, 1944 - but 56th FG got them in January

plan_D · 07-20-2009, 01:19 PM

the power increase certainly is significant; although given the size of engines it's not to be unexpected - thanks, vanir.

Daviducus2 · 07-20-2009, 02:02 PM

I recall (and may be mistaken) that the water injection took the Jug "D" model from 2,300hp to 2,530hp. Later upgraded fuel then took it to 2,600hp.

vikingBerserker · 07-20-2009, 10:15 PM

That's really amazing to me that it would make that much of a difference.

river · 07-21-2009, 08:52 AM

Hi,

The UK-based 8th Air Force P47s that were using water injection were having major problems, so P&W sent over Bill Closs.

Just before Bill Closs departed, Frank Walker (who reported to Bill) discovered that isopropyl alcohol was unsatisfactory. Bill discovered, when in the UK, that the P47s were using isopropyl.

The mixure was changed to ethanol and methanol, mixed with 50% water, and the problems vanished.

P&W called water injection ADI, for Anti-Detonation Injection. All military R2800 engines that had ADI were given a "W" suffix (ie R2800-8W), but the civilian engines never had this suffix, even if they were fitted with ADI (ie R2800-CB16). Furthermore, engines that were not ADI were often retro-fitted with ADI in the field.

ADI was initially tried on a Wright R-1430 engine by T. E. Tillinghouse (before he left Wright to go to P&W) in 1934. It raised the power from 500 to 768hp.

The ADI flow rate varied to how much power was being developed.

2400HP - ADI flow rate of 9.2lbs per minute
2500HP - ADI flow rate of 11.5lbs per minute
1900HP (in high blower) - ADI flow rate of 7.8lbs per minute.

The above information came from "R-2800 Pratt & Whitney's Dependable Masterpiece" by Graham White. It is a wonderful book.

river

07-18-2009, 05:09 AM	#1
Vincenzo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Lazio Posts: 804	Water injection on US fighter when first combat use? I looking for date of first use, in combat, of water injection on US fighters, all the models. thank you the US fighters with water injection incombat maybe FM-2, F6F, F4U, P-47 Last edited by Vincenzo; 07-18-2009 at 06:54 AM.

07-19-2009, 09:57 AM	#3
Vincenzo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Lazio Posts: 804	thank for reply i don't understand the date are the first combat with water injection on or for production of fighter with water injection? i thinked that first variant of thunderbolt with -59 was D-4 Last edited by Vincenzo; 07-19-2009 at 10:23 AM.

07-19-2009, 10:55 AM	#5
plan_D Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,978	I don't want to hijack the thread, but you've got me interested now. I know how water injection works; I was just wondering how effective it was in the war...power increase, how long it could be used etc. etc. (this is obviously different for different engines, a general overview would be nice) and did the Americans have methanol in their mixture , like the German MW50? Freezing is not nice! __________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004 To those in that club.

07-20-2009, 01:19 PM	#8
plan_D Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,978	the power increase certainly is significant; although given the size of engines it's not to be unexpected - thanks, vanir. __________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004 To those in that club.

07-20-2009, 02:02 PM	#9
Daviducus2 Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 46	I recall (and may be mistaken) that the water injection took the Jug "D" model from 2,300hp to 2,530hp. Later upgraded fuel then took it to 2,600hp. Last edited by Daviducus2; 07-20-2009 at 02:05 PM.

07-19-2009, 09:24 AM	#2
river Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 78	Hi, The F4U-1 started without water injection, but from about the 1550th unit it got the R2800-8W (W = water injection) engine. So not sure what date that would be. The P47C-5 got the R2800-59W engine around 30 July 1943. The F6F-5 got the R2800-10W engine around 19 June 1944. Not sure about the FM-2. Not sure about other engines by Pratt & Whtiney or Wright, which may of had W/I beforehand. river

07-19-2009, 10:52 AM	#4
Timppa Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 94	According to Gabreski's bio the P-47's built from D-10 and beyond had water injection built in. The earlier planes were retrofitted with this system (along with paddle blade propellers) during January 1944.

07-19-2009, 04:13 PM	#6
vanir Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 293	Running on memory and various sources... Any alcohol based anti freeze could be used, not sure which one the US chose. Gabreski said something like a 150hp increase at low altitude was readily available. I think calculated figures are for around 300hp increase (which probably means something like 180hp delivered). For use during flight, generally operators guidelines are for a 5-10min use on increased boost and water injection, whatever the type but the preferred duration is 1-2min at a time with a good cooldown period between uses. Often extreme emergency use only is specified. Sometimes specific supercharger gears are specified. For use during take off engagement is automatic and guaged on the throttle, designed to shorten the take off run under heavy loading (for carrier operations with the Corsair for example), and inherently has about a 1min use. You could probably get away with 5min safely if you needed to get up some speed quickly.

07-20-2009, 10:15 PM	#10
vikingBerserker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,722	That's really amazing to me that it would make that much of a difference. __________________ "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it" "Those who dwell in the past, condemn the future"

07-21-2009, 08:52 AM	#11
river Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 78	Hi, The UK-based 8th Air Force P47s that were using water injection were having major problems, so P&W sent over Bill Closs. Just before Bill Closs departed, Frank Walker (who reported to Bill) discovered that isopropyl alcohol was unsatisfactory. Bill discovered, when in the UK, that the P47s were using isopropyl. The mixure was changed to ethanol and methanol, mixed with 50% water, and the problems vanished. P&W called water injection ADI, for Anti-Detonation Injection. All military R2800 engines that had ADI were given a "W" suffix (ie R2800-8W), but the civilian engines never had this suffix, even if they were fitted with ADI (ie R2800-CB16). Furthermore, engines that were not ADI were often retro-fitted with ADI in the field. ADI was initially tried on a Wright R-1430 engine by T. E. Tillinghouse (before he left Wright to go to P&W) in 1934. It raised the power from 500 to 768hp. The ADI flow rate varied to how much power was being developed. 2400HP - ADI flow rate of 9.2lbs per minute 2500HP - ADI flow rate of 11.5lbs per minute 1900HP (in high blower) - ADI flow rate of 7.8lbs per minute. The above information came from "R-2800 Pratt & Whitney's Dependable Masterpiece" by Graham White. It is a wonderful book. river

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