What aircraft (any side) would you develope further

[kool kitty89]

Yep, it was a nice aircraft, though the Meteor soon beat this climb with its 7,000 ft/min climb, and the Rolls-Royce Avon testbed meteor holds the world record today iirc. From: The Gloster Meteor
"The F.8 proved popular as a test and trials aircraft. F.8s were used to test airborne radar for the Fireflash missile, midair refueling schemes, and engine fits. A heavily modified F.8 experimentally fitted with Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire 2 engines set a world climb-rate record in August 1951. One test rig was fitted with the Armstrong-Siddeley Screamer rocket engine, fitted under the fuselage. Another was fitted with Rolls-Royce Soar mini-jet engines on the wingtips, while retaining its Derwents, making it the only four-engine Meteor."

The He 100 was a good plane, and better in almost all characteristics than the Bf 109. The problem was a weak armament of only 1x 20mm MG FF cannon and 2x 7.92 MG 17 guns. Though this could probably been improved with use of MG 151/15 or MG 151/20 cannons.


And Civettone, I missed your post earlier. Perhaps licensed Nene engines would be too far in the future, as would be powerful US axial-flow engines. (except maybe the J35, but it was heavy and much better matched to single engined craft like the XP-84 which used its streamling quite to its advantage).

Perhaps Bell should have used a somewhat smaller design with a normal loaded weight of ~16,300 lbs, and max takeoff of ~20,000 lbs. They could use the J36 Goblin engines which by this time were much further along and nearing production at an uprated 3000 lbf thrust; these engines only used ~1.15 [lb/lbf hr] of fuel compared to the 1.24 [lb/lbf hr] of early J33s. This would lower the necessary fuel load. (fuel load for this plane should be around 70% of the XP-83's) Such a craft would have good power load and weight and size low enough to make a good fighter. Thrust/weight would be ~.37 normal and .30 at max weight, quite good for the time. Such a design would allow improved streamlining and performance. Speed probably nearing that of the P-80A (probably around 540 mph max) with a range still around 2000 mi. The armament could still use the 6 powerful .60 cal guns proposed (based on the MG 151/15 iirc, though with a higher rof)

Comparing such a design with the P-80 would be somewhat like comparing a P-38 with a FW-190. Whereas the XP-83 is more like a Mossie.

Speaking of the J36 goblin engine, what if Bell had improved the P-59 with smaller, thinner wings (scaled down to 88% of the originals, reducing area to ~300 ft2 compared to the original 386 ft2) and improve the wing-intake junction (if the smaller wings already didn't already solve this) and fit 2x 2700 lbf (they didn't reach 3,000 lbf until early 1945 iirc) and improve fuel capacity, armament (either P-38's or 5x .50 cal with 300+ rpg), and streamline the canopy and improve range of vision. Not necessarily a bubble-type but less framing and a smoother shape with larger rear windows)

Such improvements should allow for a top speed of 530+ mph with a thrust/weight of .40+ (assuming loaded weight increases to ~11,700 lbs) and .33+ at a max load of ~14,000 lbs. Assuming internal fuel is increased to ~420 gallons from the original ~214 gallons (the P-59B had already been increased to ~370 gal), which should increase normal combat range to ~450 mi, and ~730 mi with 2x 125 gal tanks. (with ferry range increased to well over 1000 mi) There would also be some range gain with the higher efficiency of the Goblin engines, though, at high throttle it would be somewhat less. Climb would be dramatically increased and overall performance would likely be similar to the Meteor Mk 4. Of course, these improvements would only be useful if bell had continued development in early 1943, and it should have been ready before the P-80 was. (probably late 1944, though it probably wouldn't see service any earlier than the Meteor III)

[JimM]

The I16 Rata...hands down.

[red admiral]

Where do you get your information on the L-1000 from? It doesn't tally with any of the other information I've ever seen on this. Most sources go like this;

In 1943 the Army did support the engine as a long-range project called XJ-37. Like so many projects, it combined great promise with complexity and severe problems, so in October 1945 Lockheed handed the whole effort, including Price, to Menasco. This company in turn passed it to Wright, which eventually gave up.

From Jet and Turbine Engines by Bill Gunston

Those specs off that website must be design figures. A pressure ratio of 25? (my other soruces say 17) with a 32! stage compressor and 4-stage turbine? And this engine is meant to weigh in at 1543lb? Either those stats are completely wrong or its indicative of why the engine wouldn't work. When you consider the surge problems experienced with the Avon with a p.r. of 6.50, this, a single spool compressor with a far higher p.r. would be almost impossible to start. Thinking about it, the boundary layer buildup through the compressor would make the efficiency plummet. Thats without mentioning that they'd have to build the compressor out of stainless steel or Inconel as its too early for titanium.

[kool kitty89]

It used 2 16-stage contra-rotating units (similar to the DB 007) If it had been handed to GE or Allison, it might have had more success.... I read more in "The Jet Race and the Second World war" and it seems it was a 2-spool system. See: The Jet Race and the Second World War - Google Book Search

I think the individual compressor stages were relatively small, so the dimentions were similar to the 11-stage J34. Though I doubt the engine would have been successful until the mid '50s, it might have done better in the Hands of a company like GE... And the 25.0 pressure ratio seems odd too, maby not everything on the site is correct. (as the 2000lbf J31-GE-5 of the P-59B is listed as 1550 lbf...)

It's still the US's first jet-engine design to be developed, albeit they may have bitten off a bit too much to start with... And it's interesting that the Prototype exists. As said, it would be an interesting contrast to the very conservative J31 and PYP-59 they have on display. Perhaps it would have been best to simlify the engine down to a single-spool 16 stage 2 turbine design with simpler opperation. Or maby 8-stage single turbine...

[SoD Stitch]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

It used 2 16-stage contra-rotating units (similar to the DB 007) If it had been handed to GE or Allison, it might have had more success.... I read more in "The Jet Race and the Second World war" and it seems it was a 2-spool system. See: The Jet Race and the Second World War - Google Book Search

Wow! A 2-spool core? That's pretty advanced for 1940's technology; a reliable 2-spool core wasn't developed until the 1950's. We're just now developing reliable three-spool cores.

[kool kitty89]

The Jumo 004H and 012 were 2-spool systems (though not contra-rotating) if I have my termiology correct: a 2-spool system uses 2 seperate turbine stages to drive 2 separate compressor stages right?

As for contra-rotating single-spool designs of the war, the DB 007 was one (made 2,500lbf, but was overcomplex to be practical in the timeframe) The Meterovick F.2 also used contrarotating stages iirc.

But Lockheed would have needed to work on a simplified design if it was to be ready before the war's end. Simpify the engine to one using similar compressor and turbine design but for lower efficiency, thrust and weight. Single spool 16-stage compressor 2-stage turbine engine of similar diameter but shorter and somewhat lighter. Or maby even an 8-10 stage single turbine engine scaled up to twice the original scale produce realitively more power. (up to ~35 in diameter so ~200% the area)

Maby somewhat similar to the J30 engine... Use a simplified airframe too. (probably along the lines of the P-80 but with twin-engines)

[kool kitty89]

How about the Fw-187? Out of any fighter that could have been available in significant numbers in time for the BOB the 187 probably had the most potential on influencing the outcome of the BOB. (the He 100 probably being second in this respect, though it mavy have had just enough range to make an effective escort; the Bf 109 certainly didn't, particularly in a close formation escort where fuel wasn't used as efficiently, and even worse with head-winds)

With the original single-seat configuration with 2x DB 600 engines it was an incredible plane for its time, and even with the poorer Jumo 210 engines and 2-seat arrangement later forced upon the design it was still a decent a/c (far better than the Bf 110) and would have been a nasty surprise for the British...

[MacArther]

Definately have to agree with you on that one Kool Kitty. Two 20mm and four 7.92mm guns (I think it was 4 mgs, but correct me if I'm wrong) is about the same fire power that the early Bf110s had, but it was all facing forwards. Added to this was the fact that the plane regularly clocked in excess of 330mph. Finally, the prototypes and pre-production models that were actually used in combat (Norway, I think) were highly praised for their handling and such by their pilots.

The He 100 was a good plane, and better in almost all characteristics than the Bf 109. The problem was a weak armament of only 1x 20mm MG FF cannon and 2x 7.92 MG 17 guns. Though this could probably been improved with use of MG 151/15 or MG 151/20 cannons.

Really? All my books list it with two or more cannons.

[kool kitty89]

I've always seen 2x 20mm MG-FF and 4x 7.92mm MG-17 for the Fw-187, though stronger armaments could probably be fitted later on (with MG-131's and MG-151/20's or maby some 30mm cannons, though 30mm's could certainly be mounted externaly)
And the 330-340 mph figure is for the forced (and unnecessary, as the second crewman was little more than a radio operator) 2-seat version (and preproduction craft) that used the 670 PS (about the same as HP) Junkers-Jumo 210G wich was forced on the design even though the Bf-110 was allowed to use the DB-600 and 601. (and progressive models) In fact, the 210 powered version managed to live up to the origial projected speeds for the 1000 PS DB-600 powered version!(though climb and service ceiling would be less)
However, Focke-Wolf went ahead and tested with DB engines anyway and managed an amazing 636 km/h (395 mph) with 1000 PS DB-600s! As said these figures are similar to those acheived by the P-38 with the same engine power, though several years later. At such speeds, along with climb and dive performance better than the 109 and ~1000 mi range it would have been virtually unstopable in the BOB and it was nearly as maneuverable in the horizontal as the 109, and moreso in some circumstances. (as it had lower wing-loading, though lacked the LE slats, though it probably retained energy better) Comparing this performance to the Hurricane Mk.1's performance is like comparing the P-51 to the Me 262 in many ways, except the Fw 187 would have better acceleration than the Hurricane as well and good low-speed handeling.

Info is based mostly from: Focke-Wulf 187 archive file


The He 100's armament I sited is for the pre-production He-100D-1, which was the only one to see any actual service iirc, the 2x 7.92mm and 2x 20mm I'm not sure about (though the He 112B-2 used it iirc), but the He 100C was to carry 4x MG 17 and 2x MG FF. (the same armament as the early Fw-190As) That would have been a devestating armament for a single-engined fighter to carry in the 1940-1941 timeframe. Plus the He 100 had considderable longer range than the Bf 109 at 560-650 miles normal range (compared to just over 400 miles with the Bf 109E, inless equiped for a drop-tank), this would have given it at least twice the loiter time of the 109 in the BOB. (the 109 having scarsely 15 min once reaching London)

Info from: Heinkel He 100 archive file

[kool kitty89]

One limitation of the 187 would be the narrow fusalage which, though allowing plenty of room for fuel and weapons (especially as a single-seater), wasn't large enough to contain radar internally (except for some compact radar units available very late in the war).

However the P-38 had similar limitations (even moreso than the 187 with the difficulties of containing a second crewman) and it was possible to get around these as seen in the P-38 pathfinders and the P-38M nightfighter with external radar packs slung under the nose. (though the M didn't see service)

[kool kitty89]

How about the Gloster Gloster F.5/34, with a Bristol Taurus engine and more-streamlined cowling. I'd say the Pegasus too, but the large diameter would be more difficult to integrate, while the Taurus was about the same diameter as the Mercury used in the prototype.

[kool kitty89]

On second thought, the Pegasus, with better altitude performance (2-speed supercharger), lighter weight (only ~100lbs heavier than the Mercury, and 150lbs lighter than the Taurus), better reliabillity and fewer maintence problems (didn't use sleeve valves) and shorter length would allow easier conversion from the mercury. Though the larger diameter would require a cowling redesign, but the Plane could use better cowling streamling and integration with the fusalage anyway.

[MacArther]

Possibly put a radial engine on the Bf-109 in a similar fashion to what the Japanese did with the Ki-61 to make the Ki-100. Also, the Dinah, that would have been an excellent fighter plane if more time were given to develop the options rather than just slapping some weapons onto a Dinah III and hoping it works.

[kool kitty89]

How about the Ki-83?
New Page 2
www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org - Imperial Japanese Aviation Resource Group - - Mitsubishi Ki.83

[Henk]

The Ho-229, just think if she had more reliable engines. She was already way ahead of her time and was very fuel efficient and handled greatly during her flight tests and also achieved high speeds with the all wing design.