 | What do you think of the bell p-39 was it a good dogfighter| Aviation Discuss What do you think of the bell p-39 was it a good dogfighter in the World War II - Aviation forums; i think politics stay out of british planes for the most part, there are occasions where they get involved but ... |
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06-17-2005, 12:51 PM
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#16 | | Master of Ewes
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,959
Country:  | i think politics stay out of british planes for the most part, there are occasions where they get involved but you'll always have them.........
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"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy." | 
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06-17-2005, 01:09 PM
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#17 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,013
Country:  | When its bad is when you have a politician getting involved in an aircraft's development or procurement and they know nothing about aircraft, engineering, the military or anything mechanical! 
We had a senator here named Pat Schroeder. She made a comment about Stealth Technology - "Well I don't know whats good about it, I also don't know whats bad about it." My God! This woman was deciding what equipment the US military would purchase, it sounded like she was deciding a shoe purchase! 
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06-17-2005, 01:24 PM
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#18 | | Master of Ewes
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,959
Country: | hehe!
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"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy." | |
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06-17-2005, 01:35 PM
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#19 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,013
Country: | I think to answer this, Was the P-39 a good dogfighter? Well only if you saw this in front of you whilst firing the 37mm cannon. After that you better run like hell! 
No the P-39 was NOT a good dogfighter!
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06-17-2005, 04:05 PM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 1,178
| In Warren Bodies book on the P-38, Ben Kelsely, the AAF rep for the P-38 tells the story that the P-38 escaped the "Help" of the AAF engineering staff at Wright Patterson Air Base because of the crash of the prototype. The P-39 didn't have that Blessing and suffered a lot.
wmaxt | |
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06-18-2005, 09:24 AM
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#21 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,013
Country: | Yep - When the P-38 started experiencing compressibility problems Wright Patterson engineers tried to put their 2 cents in. One recommendation was the installation of the elevator mass balance commonly seen on the P-38s tail. I attended a Lockheed Management club dinner back in 1982 and Kelly Johnson was the guest speaker. He said the mass balance does nothing and he agreed to install them just to shut up the AF engineers!
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06-18-2005, 01:04 PM
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#22 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Berlin (Kreuzberg)
Posts: 1,504
| A problem for the P-39 was the comparably heavy weight. The VVS usually removed cockpit armor and took on further weight saving measures, from which the airplane benefitted, esspeccially at low alt.
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---delcyros--- | |
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06-18-2005, 03:12 PM
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#23 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
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Originally Posted by delcyros A problem for the P-39 was the comparably heavy weight. The VVS usually removed cockpit armor and took on further weight saving measures, from which the airplane benefitted, esspeccially at low alt. | Did they removed all the armor?
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06-18-2005, 03:42 PM
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#24 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 1,178
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ Yep - When the P-38 started experiencing compressibility problems Wright Patterson engineers tried to put their 2 cents in. One recommendation was the installation of the elevator mass balance commonly seen on the P-38s tail. I attended a Lockheed Management club dinner back in 1982 and Kelly Johnson was the guest speaker. He said the mass balance does nothing and he agreed to install them just to shut up the AF engineers! | Not just to shut them up - the AAF threatened to stop the contract as they were convinced that was the cause of the tail buffet, compressability showed up at the same time but was a different issue. The introduction of the root fillets at the wing/gondola juncture smothing the airflow fixing the buffet. Incidentaly the roll down side windows did the same thing when they were opened.
wmaxt | |
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06-18-2005, 04:06 PM
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#25 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
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Originally Posted by wmaxt Quote: |
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ Yep - When the P-38 started experiencing compressibility problems Wright Patterson engineers tried to put their 2 cents in. One recommendation was the installation of the elevator mass balance commonly seen on the P-38s tail. I attended a Lockheed Management club dinner back in 1982 and Kelly Johnson was the guest speaker. He said the mass balance does nothing and he agreed to install them just to shut up the AF engineers! | Not just to shut them up - the AAF threatened to stop the contract as they were convinced that was the cause of the tail buffet, compressability showed up at the same time but was a different issue. The introduction of the root fillets at the wing/gondola juncture smothing the airflow fixing the buffet. Incidentaly the roll down side windows did the same thing when they were opened.
wmaxt | Yep - I heard that many AAF brass were continually threatening to cancel P-38 production if the compressibility probelm wasn't addressed. When it was proved that the tail buffet and the compressibility problems were 2 different things, the mass balances stayed. Johnson wanted to issue an EO to remove the balances, Bob Gross, the Lockheed President at the time sided with the Army.
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06-19-2005, 03:34 AM
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#26 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In front of puter
Posts: 8
| From what I hear the P-39 was a bi of a dud. It got a reputation as a deathtra amongst USAAF cadets who flew it over Arizona etc due to the fact that it was difficult to know when the a/c was going to stall. Apparently it gave little or no warning and was qite difficult to recover due to the c of g problems inherent with the placement of the engine.
However treated right and flown with the professional hand it was, nevertheless, an effective machine (Then again so was the Gloster Gladiator).
Basically I consider the '39 to be an inferior machine but we all know that it isn't the machine so much in A2A combat. 
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06-19-2005, 09:03 AM
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#27 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,456
Country:  | Quote: |
Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ Quote: |
Originally Posted by delcyros A problem for the P-39 was the comparably heavy weight. The VVS usually removed cockpit armor and took on further weight saving measures, from which the airplane benefitted, esspeccially at low alt. | Did they removed all the armor? | I hope they removed more than just the cockpit armor. That would mess up the CG of the aircraft! 
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-19-2005, 10:28 AM
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#28 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
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Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet I hope they removed more than just the cockpit armor. That would mess up the CG of the aircraft! | Great point Adler! There have been incidents where armor was removed from restored warbirds with disasterous results! 
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06-19-2005, 01:30 PM
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#29 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,456
Country: | I can believe it. A lot of people underestimate how dangerous the CG can be if it is not correct.
They dont realize how much removing 20 pounds here will effect the balance and overall handeling of an aircraft that weighs 5000lb.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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06-19-2005, 05:09 PM
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#30 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In front of puter
Posts: 8
| I think I may have mentioned that the G of G ws already in a bad way due to the engine placement. Removing a bit of armour shouldn'y make much difference.
I heard a similar tale from 111 sqn (BEF) in France 1940 abut a hurri pilot who put salvaged armour from a Do-17 behind the seat of his a/c. The authorities frowned upon the liberties he took citing that this would interfere with the C of G. Funnily enough nothing more was heard of the matter after said pilot did a rather impressive aerobatics display infront of the staff who questioned his decision. It wasn't long before the whole sqn followed his lead and installed armour.
Some of you have probably heard this before. Personally I think that taking any armour OUT of the P-39 is a bad idea since with an a/c as bad as that you might need all the help you can get!
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