What if?

[syscom3]

In january 1943, the Japanese successfully evacuated Guadalcanal, without the US having a clue what was taking place.

If theres one thing you can say about the IJA/IJN, is sometimes they were brilliant.

[plan_D]

That is undeniable. They were extremely lucky though, if the USN had picked up on it they would have been crushed. But as it were, some Japanese general had the right frame of mind for that moment and secured some glimmer of victory from an otherwise obvious defeat.

It just goes to show when the top used thought, the bottom of the Japanese military could achieve it. Most of the Japanese faults were found in their supply system which was, well ...it was smashed to pieces. It's amazing that the Japanese continued fighting right up until 1945.

I can only really find fault with the IJA's combat tactics, and Japan's overall strategy on how to wage the war.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think we covered this topic some where in another thread here. There was no way logistically for the Japanese to invade the US. Even if they had gotten there and created a beach head and started moving inwards, where would they go. The US is too large to cover and defeat an army on. Also they would not have been able to supply there forces and reinforce them. It takes too long to get troops and reinforcements from Japan to the west coast of the US.

[P38 Pilot]

No offense but I don't think you know very much about the jungle warfare in WWII. On the contrary getting into hand-to-hand combat in the jungles was a common occurance in comparison to normal pitched warfare. In some jungles you can barely see three feet in front of your face and be stood on the enemy before you even know he's there.

This happened with my Great-unlce who was a landing strip engineer in the Pacific. He told me the story of how he was simply leaving the area and being charged by a japanese scout that he had spooked. Said he had to grab the rifle and fling him to the ground while taking the jap's rifle and binding him and then knocked him out. I like that story alot.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by carpenoctem1689

I have played axis and allies and have "changed" the rules, for truces and alliances, transfer of funds and forces, and the game became so much more fun. My partner was defeated as germany (i was japan) and america wasnt in the war, but russia and britain were, russias western front (against my japanese) was on its knee's, while the germans on the east and western fronts was on its knees. My partner and i conferred and i told hime to build battleships and U-boats and get them to me, under africa, and transfer them to me at wars end for him, so i could boost my already large navy. He got me two battleships, and three U-boats and a carrier, not to mention some other smaller vessels, non-combat. With that and my massive navy, i launched an attack on america and crippled theyre navy, somehow survived theyre aerial assault and landed on theyre east coast, beating them to a stalemate in the middle of the US. Finally i succame to the odds, but i held out for a five day struggle after germany fell. Thats where i got the idea, though i dont believe an american invasion was near impossible.

Another good game like axis and allies but maybe alittle more balanced (give the axis alittle more chance), is "Attack!!"

[Lunatic]

If Japan had attacked British colonies in the Pacific, I believe the US was obliged to enter the war via treaty.

Without attacking either the US or Britian, Japan's war in China was stagnent. They did not have the fuel to pursue the war further - this was their motivation for attacking the USA after the USA/Britain cut off their oil supplies from the Duch East Indies.

In my opinion, the most viable change to the war to bring about German victory would have been an alliance between Germany and the Ukrain Sepratists. This would have transfered something around 1 to 1.5 million troops to the Axis side and probably brought Turkey into the war on the Axis side as well. It also would have eliminated the need for the southern attack into Russia, leaving more troops to attack Lenningrad and Moscow. And it would have provided a source of oil to the German army as well.

If this did bring Turkey into the war, it would have opened another route of attack, not dependant on control of the Med, into the Middle East and probably ensured the capture of Suez. With the capture of Suez and the securing of the Mid East, the Japanese could probably then have probably been convinced to focus their efforts on capturing India and controlling that part of the Sea, opening supply lines for mid-east oil. An alliance between Japan and the Burka's would have transfered approximately another 1 million troops from Allied to Axis control - the Indian's didn't like being under British dominion much more than the Ukrainian's liked Stalin's rule. With the German and Japanese connected via India, the US would have had a very hard time waging war against such an alliance on the Asian mainland.

Fortunately, Hitler's racism prevented such an alliance, he would not ally himself with such "inferior" stock.

=S=

Lunatic

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Lunatic

In my opinion, the most viable change to the war to bring about German victory would have been an alliance between Germany and the Ukrain Sepratists. This would have transfered something around 1 to 1.5 million troops to the Axis side and probably brought Turkey into the war on the Axis side as well. It also would have eliminated the need for the southern attack into Russia, leaving more troops to attack Lenningrad and Moscow. And it would have provided a source of oil to the German army as well.

Agreed

[P38 Pilot]

In my opinion, the most viable change to the war to bring about German victory would have been an alliance between Germany and the Ukrain Sepratists. This would have transfered something around 1 to 1.5 million troops to the Axis side and probably brought Turkey into the war on the Axis side as well. It also would have eliminated the need for the southern attack into Russia, leaving more troops to attack Lenningrad and Moscow. And it would have provided a source of oil to the German army as well.

Exactly. This would've put some pressure on the Russians from all fronts.
The oil would've have really gotten the Germans going.

An alliance between Japan and the Burka's would have transfered approximately another 1 million troops from Allied to Axis control - the Indian's didn't like being under British dominion much more than the Ukrainian's liked Stalin's rule. With the German and Japanese connected via India, the US would have had a very hard time waging war against such an alliance on the Asian mainland.

Again, another great observation!

Fortunately, Hitler's racism prevented such an alliance, he would not ally himself with such "inferior" stock.

100% Pure Irony.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Lunatic

If Japan had attacked British colonies in the Pacific, I believe the US was obliged to enter the war via treaty.

If there was treaty regarding this, I have never heard of it in my 35 years of studying the war in the PTO. On the contrary, right up untill the morning of Dec 7th, congress and the senate had warned FDR not to use American "blood" to defend the British colonies. Only the defense of the PI was permitted, and only if attacked first.

Without attacking either the US or Britian, Japan's war in China was stagnent. They did not have the fuel to pursue the war further - this was their motivation for attacking the USA after the USA/Britain cut off their oil supplies from the Duch East Indies.

True, but it was also oil and scrap iron from the US

In my opinion, the most viable change to the war to bring about German victory would have been an alliance between Germany and the Ukrain Sepratists. This would have transfered something around 1 to 1.5 million troops to the Axis side and probably brought Turkey into the war on the Axis side as well. It also would have eliminated the need for the southern attack into Russia, leaving more troops to attack Lenningrad and Moscow. And it would have provided a source of oil to the German army as well.

Agreed

........the Japanese could probably then have probably been convinced to focus their efforts on capturing India and controlling that part of the Sea, opening supply lines for mid-east oil. An alliance between Japan and the Burka's would have transfered approximately another 1 million troops from Allied to Axis control - the Indian's didn't like being under British dominion much more than the Ukrainian's liked Stalin's rule. With the German and Japanese connected via India, the US would have had a very hard time waging war against such an alliance on the Asian mainland.

Interesting scenario. I think that the capture of India by the IJA would have another side effect. The Indians would chaff at being under the Japanese thumb and probably be a thorn in their side. Dont underestimate the difficulties of the logistics for both axis pwers to expoit. India is isolated on all the land approaches by mountainous terrain. Plus anything going by sea was still a long way off while the Germans and Japanese built a fleet to expoit the situation.

The US never contemplated an invasion of Japan via the mainland. Gen. Marshall and Adm. King always saw that the road to Tokyo was through the Pacific.

[Glider]

I think that there is a tendency here to underestimate India's feeling for the UK. An awful lot of Indian Troops fought for the Allies and they were not drafted in.
I know that India had developed to the point of rightly demanding independence, but don't think that they wouldn't have fought against Japan. The Japs went to a lot of effort to emphasise this division and got nowhere with it.

[plan_D]

This couldn't be more true. India contributed over ten-million soldiers and combat workers to the Allied cause in the CBI. They made up the majority of those troops fighting in the CBI, against Japan. It is a well-known fact in British historical circles that India would have much prefered a British rule, than a Japanese one. It was always a case of destroying the Japanese threat, then getting Britain out of the country.

There's no way India would have supplied more than they did in manpower to the Axis. In fact, I believe the Indians serving against the Allies never reached more than a couple of thousand. And these were shot to pieces by Indians as they marched against them chanting; "Freedom for India,". I'm surprised the loyalty of India is even in question in America, because it's certainly not in question in Britain.

[Glider]

I should point out that we still have good ties with both India and Pakistan.
When I was training we had a number of people from overseas countries serving the five year apprenticeship in the RN including people from the Indian and Pakistani Navy.

[syscom3]

This is a what if scenario. If the Indians thought the british were going to collapse, they would side with the victor.

Same thing happened in Indonesia with the Dutch.

[plan_D]

And what makes you so sure? The Indians made up the majority of combat troops in the CBI, for the British forces to collapse would mean only a small portion of the army facing Japan in the CBI collapsing. It's well known in this country that Indians hated a possible Japanese rule more than a British one.

The Indians would have fought the Japanese 'til the end. The Japanese were halted at Imphal, they had a long way to go even if they did break through Imphal. The Indians would not just collapse and join their side.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have to go with pD on this one based off of what he just said.