Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums

What If...?

Aviation Discuss What If...? in the World War II - Aviation forums; ...


Go Back   Aircraft of World War II - Warbird Forums > World War II - Aviation > Aviation

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-24-2005, 09:19 AM   #151
Der Crewchief
 
DerAdlerIstGelandet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,822
Country:
__________________

US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006

Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
DerAdlerIstGelandet is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2005, 11:30 AM   #152
He who does not skim
 
Nonskimmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,957
Country:
Send a message via MSN to Nonskimmer
I knew it.
Nonskimmer is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2005, 11:39 AM   #153
Senior Member
 
mosquitoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Saffron Walden/Sheffield
Posts: 3,001
Country:
Send a message via MSN to mosquitoman
Ich kann ein bisschen Deutch sprechen!
__________________

When you realise that the light at the end of the tunnel is actually an oncoming train, you know it's time to run for your life
mosquitoman is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2005, 11:59 AM   #154
Master of Ewes
 
the lancaster kicks ass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,959
Country:
Send a message via MSN to the lancaster kicks ass
__________________

"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy."
the lancaster kicks ass is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2005, 12:04 PM   #155
Senior Member
 
mosquitoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Saffron Walden/Sheffield
Posts: 3,001
Country:
Send a message via MSN to mosquitoman
I can speak a little bit of german
__________________

When you realise that the light at the end of the tunnel is actually an oncoming train, you know it's time to run for your life
mosquitoman is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2005, 12:05 PM   #156
He who does not skim
 
Nonskimmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,957
Country:
Send a message via MSN to Nonskimmer
I can speak a little bit of English. Just a little.
Nonskimmer is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2005, 01:14 PM   #157
Senior Member
 
hellmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ploiesti
Posts: 194
Country:
Send a message via Yahoo to hellmaker
Je ne parle pa France... Nur Deutsch, English, and Romanian... Ce mai faceti fratii mei...?
__________________
hellmaker is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2005, 03:23 PM   #158
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 265
I hate to break the news but there was little chance that Graf Zepplin could ever operate aircraft. She was the first ever carrier designed by the Germans and suffered accordingly. She would have gone to sea with a permament 15 degree list, making it more or less impossible to operate aircraft. The Germans also lacked everything to do with carriers, doctrine, experienced pilots, experienced captains. Basically she would have had no chance. Surely she would have been bombed whilst still in port anyway? They can't build her in Gdansk in 1940.

The 12 Me109T carried by Graf wouldn't stand up well against the 100+ Fulmars and Skuas of the RN home fleet.
red admiral is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2005, 03:58 PM   #159
Der Crewchief
 
DerAdlerIstGelandet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,822
Country:
And why would she list 15 degrees permanently?
__________________

US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006

Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
DerAdlerIstGelandet is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2005, 04:02 PM   #160
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 265
The designers got their sums wrong.
red admiral is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2005, 04:16 PM   #161
Der Crewchief
 
DerAdlerIstGelandet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,822
Country:
Ive never heard of that anywear, sorry. But here is a general history on the GZ, but yes she was doomed from the beginning because of the fight between Goering and Raeder. And I do agree the ship would not have stood a chance but a list of 15 degrees permanantly I can not believe, sorry. It is not that I dont believe you, I have just never seen or heard it anywhere, I may be wrong though.

Graf Zeppelin was an aircraft carrier of the Kriegsmarine, named in honor of Count Ferdinand von Zeppelin. She was Germany's only aircraft carrier during World War II. Her construction was ordered on 16 November 1935, and her keel was laid down 28 December 1936 by Deutsche Werke of Kiel. She was launched on 8 December 1938, but was never completed, never commissioned, and never saw action.

In 1935, Adolf Hitler announced that Germany would construct aircraft carriers to strengthen the Kriegsmarine. The keels of two were laid down the next year. Two years later, Grand Admiral Erich Raeder presented an ambitious shipbuilding program called the Z Plan, in which four carriers were to be built by 1945. In 1939, he revised the plan, reducing the number to be built to two.

The German Navy has always maintained a policy of not assigning a name to a ship until she is launched. The first German carrier, laid down as "Carrier A," was named Graf Zeppelin when launched in 1938. The second carrier bore only the title "Carrier B," since she was never launched. Various names, including Peter Strasser and Deutschland, were rumored, but no official decision was ever made.

A review of the Führer's conferences on matters dealing with the German Navy, the minutes of which were captured after the fall of the Third Reich, reveals Hitler's vacillating interest in the carriers. Marshall Hermann Göring, Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe, was resentful of any incursion on his authority as head of the country's air power and he frustrated Raeder at every opportunity. Within his own service, Raeder found opposition in Admiral Karl Dönitz, a submariner.

By May 1941, the strain on manpower and raw materials was being felt in Germany. Raeder was still optimistic, however, and informed Hitler that Graf Zeppelin, then about 85 per cent complete, would be completed in about a year and that another year would be required for sea trials and flight training.

Though Hitler continued to assure Raeder that the carriers would be built, the Admiral's war with Göring had no truce and became increasingly bitter. Göring showed his contempt for the naval air arm by informing Hitler and Raeder that the aircraft ordered for Graf Zeppelin could not be available until the end of 1944. Göring's delaying tactics worked.

Construction on the carriers had been fitful from the start. "Carrier B" was abandoned in 1940 and broken up. Manpower and material shortages plagued the Graf Zeppelin.

Prodded by Raeder, Hitler ordered Göring to produce aircraft for the carrier and under this pressure, the air marshall offered redesigned versions of the Junkers Ju 87B and the Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3, which were at that time being phased out of the Luftwaffe first-line squadrons. Raeder was unhappy, but he had to accept them or none at all. This forced another delay in the construction of the carrier: the flight deck installations had to be changed.

By 1943, Hitler had become disenchanted with his Navy. Raeder was relieved at his own request and Dönitz, the submarine admiral, took the top naval post. Work on Graf Zeppelin stopped completely.

As the end of World War II neared, Graf Zeppelin was scuttled in shallow water at Szczecin (known to the Germans as Stettin) on 25 April 1945, just before the Red Army captured the city. After Germany's surrender, though, her history and fate is unclear. According to the terms of the Allied Tripartite Commission, a "Category C" ship (damaged or scuttled) should have been destroyed or sunk in deep water by 15 August 1946. Instead, the Russians decided to repair the damaged ship. It was refloated in March, 1946. The last known photo of the carrier shows it leaving Świnoujście (in German Swinemunde) on 7 April 1947 (see [1] (http://www.fds.px.pl/foto/big/1099826239.jpg)). The photo appears to show the carrier deck loaded with various containers, boxes and construction elements, hence the supposition that it was probably used to carry looted factory equipment from Poland and Germany to the Soviet Union.

For many years no other information about the ship's fate was available. There was some speculation that it was very unlikely that the hulk made it to Leningrad, as it was argued that the arrival of such a large and unusual vessel would have been noticed by Western intelligence services. This assumption seemed to imply that the hulk was lost at sea during transfer between Świnoujście and Leningrad. One account concluded that she struck a mine north of Rügen on 15 August 1947, but Rügen, west of Świnoujście, is not on the sailing route to Leningrad. Further north, in the Gulf of Finland, a heavily-mined area difficult for Western observers to monitor, seemed more likely.

After the opening of the Soviet archives, new light was shed on the mystery. It appears that the carrier was towed to Leningrad. There, after unloading, it was designated as "PO-101" (Floating Base Number 101), The Russians hoped that the carrier could be repaired in Leningrad's shipyards (those in Szczecin were destroyed). When this proved impractical, the ship was towed out to sea, back to the Świnoujście area. There, on 16 August 1947, it was used as a practice target for Soviet ships and aircraft. Allegedly, the Soviets installed aerial bombs on the flight deck, in hangars and even inside the funnels (to simulate a load of combat munitions), and then dropped bombs from aircraft, fired shells, and shot torpedoes into her. This assault would both comply with the Tripartite mandate (albeit late) and provide the Soviets with experience in sinking an aircraft carrier. After being hit by 24 bombs and projectiles, the ship did not sink and had to be finished off by torpedoes. The wreck of the carrier has never been located.

Displacement: 23,000 tons
Length: 920 feet
Beam: 88 feet
Power Plant: geared turbines, four screws (unusual for Germany, which preferred triple screws)
Speed: 33.8 knots
Aircraft Complement: 42 Messerschmitt Me 109T fighters and Junkers Ju 87C dive bombers
__________________

US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006

Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes:

fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

"wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2"

"ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life"
DerAdlerIstGelandet is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2005, 02:55 AM   #162
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 265
My mistake, the list was more like 4.5degrees. It was countered when work restarted on her in 43-44 by the addition of bulges and more ballast.
red admiral is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2005, 11:21 AM   #163
Master of Ewes
 
the lancaster kicks ass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,959
Country:
Send a message via MSN to the lancaster kicks ass
well i'd still prefer no list if i was trying to land on her, espeailly in a -109T..............
__________________

"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy."
the lancaster kicks ass is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2005, 11:52 AM   #164
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Berlin (Kreuzberg)
Posts: 1,527
A possible list (never heard about that before, too) would be a minor problem, since there was pretty much possibilitie to counterlist in such a big hull. A captain for such a ship would be the smallest problem. The main problem would be both, airplanes and operations as pointed out above by R Leonard. And a single carrier would be of very limited worth for Kriegsmarine (maybe except for the use as a weapon of beeing as disscussed above). The few Bf-109 T and Fieseler-bomber were clearly obsolete in 1942. I was wondering why they never tried to modify the Fw-190 A for a carrier. It could do all possible carrierplane jobs: fighter, bomber, torpedo carrier and recon.
__________________
---delcyros---
delcyros is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2005, 11:57 AM   #165
Master of Ewes
 
the lancaster kicks ass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,959
Country:
Send a message via MSN to the lancaster kicks ass
well by the time the -190 came into service i think they'd realised ti was never gonna happen.........
__________________

"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy."
the lancaster kicks ass is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Spurl this Post!Reddit! Wong this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.1.0
   

AVIATION TOP 100 - www.avitop.com Avitop.com


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92