What If...?

[mosquitoman]

Another place I've got to go to!

[delcyros]

Nice picture, Adler.

[trackend]

Subs have always given me the willies almost satanic in appearance
Great pics Adler.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The XXI was quite a beauty and very deadly. She pretty much dictated the future designs of Submarines after the war.

[delcyros]

A whole generation of soviet subs: the Whiskey class- and early US-nuclear driven submarines used the hull design (Walter-. It was not prior to the soviet nuclear driven submarines of the K- class that a new and more advanced hull design arrived.
With 17 knotes submerged it was 6,5 knotes faster than the limited speed for ASDIC-use. And with LUT -torpedoes it doesn´t even need to climb to pericope depth, it can fire from 300 ft.
The only ship to see service was U-2511, which made a succesful mock attack on a british cruiser (Schnee doesn´t want to be a war crime, since he got the order to return home, because of VE-day). U-2511 stayed for the whole sortie submerged. Deadly ship, indeed.

[mosquitoman]

After the war a test was done and only 6% of the time a Schnorkel head would be picked up on a British ASV set. In other words, for every six that got septh-charged, 94 would go unnoticed

[the lancaster kicks ass]

unless they were picked up by any other system.........

[mosquitoman]

Like what?

[delcyros]

Later Snorkel designs used some stealthy materials, like rubber and bendable graphite-gluemixtures. They have been installed in Type XXI and XXIII exclusively. Type XXIII was a similar, but smaller design, like a coast submarine (or the early type II subs). It saw some considerable service, while "only" running at 11 knotes submerged it was barely one third as large as a type XXI boat. It was still a considerable weapon, this type is credited with the last sinking of an allied ship on the 5th of May at the Firth of Forth. Losses are because of bombing and scuttling, only. No boats have been destroyed by ships, while at least three of them were engaged. A few boats have been risen in post war times and put into the newly formed Bundesmarine of western Germany.

[mosquitoman]

I've read that the type XXIII sunk 5 ships in areas of high Allied air cover

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Originally Posted by mosquitoman

Like what?

i don't actually know if there was annother system i just thought there might be.............

[GT]

Update.

[cheddar cheese]

Me-109T's, Ju-87's (I think C varients) and Fi-167's are all that I know of.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Actually the Ju-87C was later changed to Ju-87D's, Bf-109T's, and Fi-167's. There would not have been a large eneogh compliment of Bf-109T's however to protect the ship. I do believe though that had the ship made it into service and had it survived for a considerable time the 109's would have been replaced by Fw-190's.

Ju-87D

With the huge success of the Junkers Ju 87 dive bomber in the early days of World War II (the Battle of Britain did not yet happened at this time), it is no big surprise that the "Stuka" was selected as the primary dive bombers to be used on German aircraft carriers.

The Junkers Ju 87C-1 was an adapted version of the Junkers Ju 87B-1 which was build between 1938 and 1940. While engine and armament were the same as in the land based version of this famous dive bomber, several enhancements had to be made to adapt it to a carrier bases aircraft. In addition to a more massive fuselage, storable wings and an arrestor hook, the landing gear could be dropped for emergency landings in the ocean.

At least one Prototype of the Ju 87C-0 was completed and several others were under construction when the construction of the Graf Zeppelin was stopped. Those planes were later rebuild to the Ju87B standard.

When it was considered to complete the Graf Zeppelin , the C Model of the Ju 87 was already obsolete at this time. Therefore, the Ju87D was chosen as the new carrier bomber, in the role of the dive bomber and as a torpedo bomber. It was projected to make the same modifications to the original Luftwaffe design as it was previously done in case of the Ju87C, but none of those aircraft was ever completed.
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmari...u87/index.html

Dimensions
Length: 11,50 m
Span: 13,80 m
Height: 3,90 m
Empty weight: 3900 kg
Max weight: 6600 kg
Crew: 2
Weapons
MG 17 (7,92 mm): 2 (wings)
MG 15 (7,92 mm):
MG 81Z (7,92 mm: 1 (rear cockpit)
Disposable payload: 1800 kg of bombs
Engines
Engines: 1
Type: Junkers Jumo 211 J-1 12 cylinder
Engine performance: 1410 hp (1038 kw)
Performance
Max. Speed: 410 kph
Max. Range: 1535 km
Max. Altitude: 7290 m

Fi-167

The Fieseler Fi 167 was designed as the prime torpedo and reconnaissance bomber for German aircraft carriers. With the beginning of the construction of the Graf Zeppelin in 1937, two aircraft producers, Fieseler and Arado, were ordered to produce prototypes for a carrier based torpedo bomber. By summer of 1938 the Fiesler design proved to be superior to the Arado design, the Ar195.

Like the famous Fieseler Fi 156 Storch, the Fi 167 had surprising slow speed capabilities, the plane would be able to land almost vertically on a moving aircraft carrier.

After two prototypes (Fi 167 V1 & Fi 167 V2), twelve pre production models (Fi 167A-0) were build which only had slight modifications to the prototypes. The aircraft exceeded all requirements by far, and had excellent handling capabilities and could carry about twice the required weapons payload.

Since the Graf Zeppelin was not expected to be completed before the end of 1940, the construction of the Fi 167 only had a low priority. When the construction of the Graf Zeppelin was stopped in 1940, the completion of further aircraft was stopped and the existing ones were taken into Luftwaffe service in the "Erprobungsgruppe 167".

After the construction of the CV Graf Zeppelin was continued in 1942 the Junkers Ju 87 C took over the role as an reconnaissance bomber and torpedo bombers weren't seen to be needed anymore. Nine of the exisiting Fi 167 were send to a coastal naval squadron in the Netherlands and returned to Germany in summer of 1943. After that they were sold to Romania. The remaining planes were used in the "Deutsche Versuchsanstalt für Luftfahrt" (German Aircraft Experimental Institute) in Budweis, Czechia for testing several different landing gear configurations. None of this aircraft still exists today
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmari...167/index.html

Dimensions
Length: 11,40 m
Span: 13,50 m
Height: 4,80 m
Empty weight: 2800 kg
Max weight: 4850 kg
Crew: 2
Weapons
MG 17 (7,92 mm): 1 (forward fuselage)
MG 15 (7,92 mm): 2 (rear cockpit)
Disposable payload: 1 SD-1000 bomb (1000 kg) or 1 SC-500 (500 kg) bomb or
1 SC-250 bomb (250 kg) and 4 SC-50 (50) kg bombs or
1 LT F5b torpedo (765 kg)
Engines
Engines: 1
Type: Daimler Benz DB 601B inverted V-piston engine
Engine performance: 1100 hp (820 kw)
Performance
Max. Speed: 325 kph
Max. Range: 1500 km (932 miles)
Max. Altitude: 8200 m (26905 ft)

Bf-109T

The Messerschmitt Me 109T was the projected carrier version of the Me 109E model. About 70 planes of this version were build by Fieseler, several modifications had to be made to adapt these single seat fighters for the use on aircraft carriers:

T-0: 10 Me 109E-3 modified by Fieseler in 1939/40, Span enhanced to 11.06 meters, arrestor hook and catapult mountings. Those aircraft were planed to be used on the Graf Zeppelin and were later used by I/JG 77.
T-1: like T-0, 60 build by Fieseler and delivered to JG 5. Since the carrier was not completed, all planes were modified to T-2
T-2: All equipment for carrier operations removed.
The first 10 aircraft were of the pre production Series (T-0), followed by 60 production aircraft of the T-1 series. When construction of the Graf Zeppelin was halted in 1940, further development of the Me 109 T was stopped, too. In late 1940 Fiesler was ordered to complete the 60 T-1 models but to remove all all carrier-equipment. The result were 60 aircraft of the now called T-2 series which were able to operate from short land airstrips.

The first aircraft were delivered in the beginning of 1941 and were used in Norway until the summer of 1942. The surviving aircraft were then transferred to the Helgoland, a small island in the North Sea, where they were used for point defense up to late 1944.
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmari...109/index.html

Dimensions
Length: 8,76 m
Span: 11,08 m
Height: 2,60 m
Empty weight: 2253 kg
Max weight: 3078 kg
Crew: 1
Weapons
MG 17 (7,92 mm): 2 (forward fuselage)
either MG 17 (7,92 mm): 2 (wing mounted)
or MG FF (20mm): 2 (wing mounted)
Engines
Engines: 1
Type: Daimler Benz DB 601N inverted V-piston engine
Engine performance: 1200 hp (895 kw)
Performance
Max. Speed: 575 kph
Max. Range: 915 km (568 miles)
Max. Altitude: 10500 m (34450 ft)

[the lancaster kicks ass]

wow some great info there..........