What If...?

[CurzonDax]

Okay time to ressurect this list: I was reading some time ago a book by Newt Gengritch called 1945, about how the Germans were trying to kill the Manhattan Project. In this book the US went to war with the Japanese not the Germans because they never declared war on the US. My question, if both the US and the Germans had continued to develop thier arms and the thier leaders naturally, as in like some of the fantasy projects that we all would like to see fly or float, would the US and Germany eventually gone to war and who would have won. (also take economics and technology into thought). Also the book does follow actual history in the ETO from 1939 to 1941. Also without a US in the Allied mix, could have Hitler defeated Russia?

:{)

[Twitch]

Think of how vast the Western and North African commitment was in materiel and manpower invested in by Germany. With no threatening flanks the whole weight of the German armed forces would have been available to destroy Russia.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think eventually they would have. Think about it, the cold war would have been Democracy against Faciscm. Eventually Bush would have invaded Germany!

[MP-Willow]

Bush invaiding Germany In the spirit of the question at the top of this page, the US would have been drawn in yes latter, after Germany had beaton England, but they would have been bogged down in the east. It would then have been beaten by the Duch and Polish resistance, among others. The empire would not have held together, but might have long enouph to shake hands with Japan someplace in Burma

[carpenoctem1689]

If America went to war with the Japanese they would win, no questions asked, and most likely hitler would not flagrantly help the japanese in fear of bringing america into the war. By the time germany beat england amd russia, japan would have been crushed. So now you have the US with forces off the russian cost, lots of forces, and maybe even some of china, which was owned by the US. Such a strong US presense and fear of the massive german empire would most likely allow an alliance between tehe victorious americans and the battered chinese. Americas massive production and industrial capabilities would be more capable than those of the germans, even if they beat both russia and england, because they had more experienced workers, had been in place longer, and morale on the homefront was always high. Germanys empire would be in a huge pincer, on two fronts. Americas Atlantic fleet would have been supplemented by more carriers and BB;s, including Montanas (most likely) and the projects designed could have come to fruition. German forces would also have to contend with chinese borders to the russian front. Now germays massive empire would need to have occupational forces and repair damage and morale on all fronts. My vite, I would say the US would emerge the victors, along with china, and then eventually would lead to a cold war with the chinese and US.

[Bullockracing]

I thought that the Russians had already stopped the Germans in their tracks by the time America entered the war... The Allies landed in Normandy due to Stalin's charge that they were letting Russia do all the bleeding. The Western Front was opened to give the Russians some breathing room, in addition to the realization that Russia would eventually beat back Germany and unless the Allies wanted a communist-controlled Europe, they had to get in on the action.

[blue swede]

True, but they were fighting the Allies on the Medditerranen front and were building the West wall. If these force had been freed up, according to the scenario, I believe they could have conquered the Soviets. Also the United States probably would not have been helping the Soviets with military aid.
What happens next would depend on the Germans using a liitle common sense in handling the conquered people. If done right, I think they could have won the support of the Russian people, presenting a unified bloc against the proposed Chinese/America forces.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Bullockracing

I thought that the Russians had already stopped the Germans in their tracks by the time America entered the war... The Allies landed in Normandy due to Stalin's charge that they were letting Russia do all the bleeding. The Western Front was opened to give the Russians some breathing room, in addition to the realization that Russia would eventually beat back Germany and unless the Allies wanted a communist-controlled Europe, they had to get in on the action.

The German army was stopped in Russia at Moscow, and by winter conditions.

The Allies always intended to invade Normandy, the quesiton was when. Stalin wanted it sooner than later. Eisenhower wisely planned the invasion for when he had the men, material and air supremecy to sucede.

[Bullockracing]

Roger that, syscom. The German army ran up against General January and General February, and didn't have much better luck than Napoleon. Had America continued with its status quo in 1941, the Russians would have been able to push the Germans back eventually, albeit not as quickly as they did once the Normandy invasion happened. The winter of 1941 allowed the Russians to pack up their production factories and move them east of the Urals, out of reach of the German offensive. While this is only one side, the British still had pressure on the Western Front. The Germans couldn't abandon any of the other fronts to beef up the Russian front without weakening another.

[carpenoctem1689]

Japan, already at war with china, mad about the border class in manchuria, and not fearing an american invasion might well defeat china and the move on to russia, because china wouldnt be getting american supplies, and it would most likely fall, opening up resources to the japanese who could pound the soviets. making it unwinnable for them...even if the japanese lost on their front, it would make needed russian forces they couldnt spare on their eastern front

[KraziKanuK]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The German army was stopped in Russia at Moscow, and by winter conditions.

The Allies always intended to invade Normandy, the quesiton was when. Stalin wanted it sooner than later. Eisenhower wisely planned the invasion for when he had the men, material and air supremecy to sucede.

That is a bit of a myth. The Russians were just as much effected by the winter as the Germans. The only Russian troops 'winter' equiped were those from Siberia.

The Spring and Fall seasons had more effect on the battles on the EF.

Should add, that the wrecking of the Russian rail system and having to be re-built to German rr guage slowed the delivery of much needed supplies.

Normandy was not the prime invasion place. The whole coast was looked at and there was thoughts of going up the under belly of Europe, Italy.

[delcyros]

Yes. The only way Hitler succeeding in Russia are:
1.) Replace spy Dr. Richard Sorge in Japan (who supported Stalin with concrete attack plans of Japan and Germany and had some political influence on the japanese prime minister) in time &
2.) convince Japan to attack Russia instead of the US (as originally wanted and called for).
ergo:
no sibirian reinforcement in late 1941 for Moscow
military operations in 1941/early 1942 would be more difficult to cunduct for the red army, maybe that Moscow would fall, maybe that Stalin ask for armistice (as he indeed did) or he will be replaced by another one.
It remains still questionable if a joint attack on Russia would be powerful enough to defeat Russia (Japans ground forces are of questionable value and the distances are really beyond good and evil)

[KraziKanuK]

Questionable or not delcyros, the Japanese would have pulled men and resources from the EF which might have been the edge the Germans needed.

[davparlr]

Originally Posted by carpenoctem1689

Japan, already at war with china, mad about the border class in manchuria, and not fearing an american invasion might well defeat china and the move on to russia, because china wouldnt be getting american supplies, and it would most likely fall, opening up resources to the japanese who could pound the soviets. making it unwinnable for them...even if the japanese lost on their front, it would make needed russian forces they couldnt spare on their eastern front

The Japanese were unlikely able to provide support to Germany with Russia under any circumstance. The US had issued an ultimatum to Japan telling them either to get out of China or face an embargo of oil. Without oil, Japan could not defeat China. The Japanese had only a few months of oil available when they attacked Pearl Harbor. To continue the fight with China, the US had to be neutralized. In addition, Japan was hesitant to engage Russia, whch agravated Hitler (he declared war on the US expecting Japan to do the same with Russia). You see, the Japanese had already engaged Russia, along the Manchuran border I believe, and had been spanked. It seems they had met a no-name Marshal called Zhukov!

[carpenoctem1689]

yeah, but were assuming the US would not issue the Ultimatum, not wanting a war, and might not totally embargo oil. with no aid from the US china would likely fall, and her natural resources would become available to the japanese...when the russians moved production facities, the japanese had long range bombers and fighters that could disrupt this.