What If: Mosquitos vs Oil Targets

[davebender]

How many aircraft can bomb and clear the blast area before that 11 second delay expires? I would guess not more then a single squadron. Not enough to cripple a hydrogenation plant.




Your best chance to achieve surprise might be to convince the Luftwaffe your Mosquito light bombers are normal RAF Bomber Command aircraft. Stettin is only about 75 miles from Berlin. Have the Mosquitos tag along with Lancaster Bombers attacking the German Capital.

Just before reaching the Berlin flak belt the Mosquito light bombers dive to 500 feet and make a high speed approach to Stettin. The lead squadron act as path finders, dropping parachute flares to illuminate the refinery complex for the bombers. Disappear into the darkness over the Baltic immediately after bombing.

[Shortround6]

The 37mm guns were able to train as well as the 20mm or close to it. the bigger prolem is that the PRACTICAL rate of fire was no where near the cyclic rate of fire. Usually about 1/2 or less. the early models fired an average 80rounds per minute but for combat against low flying aircraft the cycle rate is probably better. BUT even allowing 150rpm it takes 4.8 seconds to fire 12 shots (assuming that the 6 or 8 round clips can be linked) and in 4.8 seconds a 300mph airplane can cover 720 yds. It is in the longer ranges with more extended firing times that the cycle rate falls as the loaders struggle to keep up with the gun/s.

German 20mm guns were feed by 20 round boxes so the faster firing guns need a magazine change every 2 1/2 seconds. against really low fliers they will be doing good to empty one box against a single target but two is probably out of the question.

[Siegfried]

I'm sure that the targets attacked by Mosquitos at low level weren't exactly undefended.

I suspect in most cases they were not defended well. A squadron of fighter bombers can potentially attack hundreds of targets over hundreds of km, a FLAK battery can be in only one spot at a time. A pair of guns might bring down two enemy fighters but the rest may escape. Achieving adequate flak density to deter an attack coming at an unknown time and place is expensive. That's why air power works I would say.

[Siegfried]

The 37mm guns were able to train as well as the 20mm or close to it. the bigger prolem is that the PRACTICAL rate of fire was no where near the cyclic rate of fire. Usually about 1/2 or less. the early models fired an average 80rounds per minute but for combat against low flying aircraft the cycle rate is probably better. BUT even allowing 150rpm it takes 4.8 seconds to fire 12 shots (assuming that the 6 or 8 round clips can be linked) and in 4.8 seconds a 300mph airplane can cover 720 yds. It is in the longer ranges with more extended firing times that the cycle rate falls as the loaders struggle to keep up with the gun/s.

German 20mm guns were feed by 20 round boxes so the faster firing guns need a magazine change every 2 1/2 seconds. against really low fliers they will be doing good to empty one box against a single target but two is probably out of the question.

Old information still doing the rounds of the internet re the magazine. The 2.0cm FLAK C/38 used 40 round boxes though they could use the older 20 round magazines of the pre war and much older and slower firing C/30 gun.

The C/38 had a cadence of 480 rounds per minute, in the flakvierling litterally (flak quadling) mount generally only two guns were fired while the other two were being reloaded and cooling a little. The result was a practical and very sustainable rate of fire of just under 2 x 480 rpm. It didn't matter much that the magazines were 20,40,60 or 100. I would suggest 40 might even be optimal from an ammunition handling point of view and would stack neatly in wooden crates.

[wuzak]

How many aircraft can bomb and clear the blast area before that 11 second delay expires? I would guess not more then a single squadron. Not enough to cripple a hydrogenation plant.

You're correct. I believe a squadron of 12 could drop their bombs and clear the area before the bombs went off.

With a hydrogenation plant I'm sure there are plenty of targets which could be bombed by squadrons in this manner without causing problems for other squadrons bombing other areas of the plant,

In any case, there were other fuses with longer delays if needed.

Your best chance to achieve surprise might be to convince the Luftwaffe your Mosquito light bombers are normal RAF Bomber Command aircraft. Stettin is only about 75 miles from Berlin. Have the Mosquitos tag along with Lancaster Bombers attacking the German Capital.

Just before reaching the Berlin flak belt the Mosquito light bombers dive to 500 feet and make a high speed approach to Stettin. The lead squadron act as path finders, dropping parachute flares to illuminate the refinery complex for the bombers. Disappear into the darkness over the Baltic immediately after bombing.

You could also do the same during the daylight with the 8th AF bombers. In both cases the reduced speeds may compromise the Mosquito's range and cancel its key advantages - speed and agility (for a bomber). AT night the slower speed required to stay with the Lancs and Halifaxes would render the Mosquito far more vulnerable to nightfighters than otherwise.

But the idea of using the BC bomber stream as a cover or diversion is quite valid. As the main force heads towards Berlin (per your example) they will attract the bulk of the NF force in their region. The Mosquito force, flying low and fast could sneak past the pre-occupied defences and attack the oil installation. They may even be able to achive this before the main force reaches Berlin. The Main force could continue on its mission, or turn and bombs the fires set by the Mossies.

[mhuxt]

Don't forget fighter aircraft. If the Mosquitos are bounced while at low level they are likely to be slaughtered. S

The numbers suggest that isn't the case - Mossies suffered far less from fighters when at low level than when up high.

Even when the formation was indeed bounced in daylight, slaughter was not the result. There were a couple of ops to Norway in which the formation was bounced, but only one aircraft was lost. On the Philips raid, the Mossies were travelling more slowly than normal to maintain formation, and were attacked by Fw 190s. The two tail-end Charlies, by pre-arrangement, broke away to draw the fighters. One Mossie was damaged, the other outpaced the Wulfs and actually went on to bomb the target.

There were two occasions on which two Mossies from the same daylight bomber formation were shot down by fighters, one in October '42, one in April '43.

[wuzak]

Germany had excellent intelligence services and they watched RAF Bomber Command closely. If you take assets from RAF Bomber Command the Luftwaffe will find out. Then it will be almost impossible to conduct a surprise attack.

Really?

I got the impression that all German agents in the UK were captured or turned, and all the information that was fed back was misinformation.

[davebender]

A Mosquito looks a lot different then a B-17. If 100 Mosquitos tag along during daylight and split off from the main formation en mass I think the Luftwaffe air defense network would notice.

Night is a different matter. German radar will notice 100 aircraft splitting off but they won't know what type aircraft. I suspect WWII era air search radar didn't work well for low flying aircraft so the Mosquitos are likely to disappear from the screen when they reach 500 feet.

@300mph it's only 15 minutes from Berlin to Stettin. The attack on Stettin will be over before the Luftwaffe figure out where the 100 aircraft went. So Mosquito light bombers will be faced only with flak, which is plenty bad enough at Stettin. Losing all 100 Mosquitos to light flak would be worthwhile if the hydrogenation plant is destroyed. That's the grim calculus of war.

[tomo pauk]

Old information still doing the rounds of the internet re the magazine. The 2.0cm FLAK C/38 used 40 round boxes though they could use the older 20 round magazines of the pre war and much older and slower firing C/30 gun.

The C/38 had a cadence of 480 rounds per minute, in the flakvierling litterally (flak quadling) mount generally only two guns were fired while the other two were being reloaded and cooling a little. The result was a practical and very sustainable rate of fire of just under 2 x 480 rpm. It didn't matter much that the magazines were 20,40,60 or 100. I would suggest 40 might even be optimal from an ammunition handling point of view and would stack neatly in wooden crates.

How can one load one pair of barrels while all barrels are trained vs. the enemy aircraft?? The loaders are in cover/ditch/shelter when such an AA gun is firing!

A good source that can prove that 40 round box was in service use could also come in handy.

[davebender]

When defending a fixed installation (i.e. hydrogenation plant) the flak weapons, radar, communications, fire control center etc. would all have permanent defensive positions that provide cover. Crew are protected from everything except a direct hit.

[Vincenzo]

How can one load one pair of barrels while all barrels are trained vs. the enemy aircraft?? The loaders are in cover/ditch/shelter when such an AA gun is firing!
.

loader are near the guns ready to load, think they go away is very strange

[tomo pauk]

I agree that they are near the gun, 5-10 m away, not within arm's reach.

[Vincenzo]

i think googling you can find pics with loader much nearest of 5/10 meters

[Glider]

That is true but the Germans were very good at using remote techniques to monitor Bomber Command and the 8th Air Force. They listend for things like the radios being warmed up before take off, listening to the radio for breaches in security, tracking them as they formed up. They were also excellent at getting POW's to talk and analysing little details such as the photos given to aircrew to help with ID cards should they try to avoid capture.

Its an interesting area.

[Shortround6]

How can one load one pair of barrels while all barrels are trained vs. the enemy aircraft?? The loaders are in cover/ditch/shelter when such an AA gun is firing!

A good source that can prove that 40 round box was in service use could also come in handy.

It may vary with army, the gun involved and training.
According to some sources the 20 round magazines weighed about 21kg which is not too bad a load for a man to follow a traversing gun with. Stumbling over outriggers and such does slow things down. The allied 20mm Oerlikon with it's 60 round drum may have been more difficult to reload.
I believe you served on/with a twin 30mm weapon?
What was the weight of the magazine or feed arrangement of those weapons and how long did it take to change them or top them up?
Changing a 20 round box magazine may not be that difficult compared to larger, heavier magazines or feeds. Given the short firing times trying to reload during the engagement would be desirable vs releasing between engagements or firing exposures like could be done with guns holding 3 times the amount of ammo.

As far as the 40 round " box" goes all I have found so far is that there were shipping/transport boxes that held two 20 round magazines each for 40 rounds per "box".