What of the Me 410?

[Erich]

Udet I have the complete losses listing for all of ZG 26 and 76 for the war. Pretty sad truly the twin engine crews got snuffed during 1944 especially by Allied Mustangs/T-bolts

[Lt. Mereel]

Didnt the P-38 take some down too?

[Udet]

Erich, hi

I have parts of loss listings for the ZG...but since you have the whole package, the loss ratio was...?

[Udet]

I´ll be damned. Look at what i just found in a russian webpage regarding the performance of the remote-controlled MG 131 barbetes on the Me 410; first found it in my russian search engine and luckily the webpage has its english area.

You might find this of interest:

Me-410 - Heavy Fighter - Luftwaffe

[CharlesBronson]

Nice site. Some obvious statements by the russians.

a) The quality of the assembly of instruments, electrical equipment, and wiring remained high up till the end of the war, thus significantly contributing to trouble-free operation of special equipment.


Enough said.


While evaluating the Me 410 from a tactical point of view, Lieutenant Colonel Magon pointed out that the modern Soviet Yak-3, Yak-9U, and La-7 fighters outperformed the Messerschmitt where speed and maneuverability were concerned.

Yes.. and if a put my hand in a river I going to get wet, the mission of this subvariat was to engage bombers at high altitude not doghfighting.


At the same time, the Me-410B-2 was a threat to all types of Soviet series-produced bombers, the Tu-2 included, due to its high capabilities.


Not only soviet, also the B-24, B-17 and everything, the 50 mm minengranate carry 350 grams of high explosive so it could disable any aircraft made during the ww2.

at sea level 507
at altitude 624

Nice data, it is interesting that with the 50 mm gun (wich weights 540 kg) and 2 MG-151, the plane still can surpassed the 600 km/h barrier.

[YakFlyer]

One could best sum up the abilities in the Zestorer, in two allied aircraft, the P-51, and the Mosquito. The story of the Zestorer must be considered a failure, certainly in day-time ops. It is all very well saying that they were not designed to tangle with single engine fighters, but what if one appears in combat, you have no choice. They had no ability dogfighting. The Mosquito and the '51 did the two jobs so sucessfully, that the Zestorers failed with doing at once.

[Jank]

[Civettone]

It is all very well saying that they were not designed to tangle with single engine fighters

I don't know if that's true. How can any fighter be designed not to tangle with single-engined fighters. Most countries only had single-engined aircraft as fighters...

The way I see it is that the Bf 110 was deprived of its qualities when it was ordered to stick closely to the bombers it had to protect. When properly used - that is in what Americans call a BnZ attack - the Bf 110 was more than a match for the Spitfire and definitely better than the Hurricane.

Also later against the Russians the Bf 110 did what it was supposed to until replacement by the Me 210 was due.
Kris

[Udet]

Excellent comment Civ.

That sounded as if there were areas of German airspace where access to single-engined fighters was banned. "Twin-engined fighters only".

German planners certainly made fateful decisions regarding military production but of course they knew what kind of planes would the Me 410 encounter when airborne in the year 1944.

I do not know if you read this thread from its beginning Civ but my point is the actual performance of the Me 410 remains a mistery, and might eventually remain as such.

I have commented German planners made a terrible mistake in maintaining the Zerstörergruppen in service from the second half of 1943 and through the whole 1944. Why a mistake? Not because the Hornisse was a piece of crap against anything that was not a bomber like most accounts suggest, rather my viewpoint has different grounds; it was a huge mistake due to the resources a ZG demanded to remain operational.

ZG 26 and ZG 76 did not justify their existance during the 18 months comprising the period of time between summer 1943 and the end of 1944.

When one gets to know further about the fuel crisis of the Luftwaffe during the last 12 months of the war it can only be wondered what the hell were the guys in the OKL thinking...that scarce and precious fuel in the tanks of the Me 410s during 1944could have been used -at minimum- to dramatically increase the number of sorties flown by the jagdgeschwdern in Reichsverteidigung.

Civ...lose one Me 410 in combat, say, the 2 guys are KIAs; on the other hand lose one Bf 109 or Fw 190, the pilot (one guy) also a KIA.

2 vs 1: a 100% casualty rate in the case of the Me 410. Another reason to affirm with confidence it was a gruesome mistake to keep the Hornisse in service during such period.

The fuel again...what a single Me 410 swallowed during one sole mission could have put how many Bf 109s or Fw 190s in the air?

If ZG 26 and ZG 76 remained operational during 1944 with the human and material resources both units swallowed, two jagdgeschwadern of four gruppe each could have been made operational to greet the 8th AF.

The argument the Me 410 endured high losses is almost meaningless if presented to prove the plane was a fat turkey if confronted with allied fighters. The whole Luftwaffe took high losses but we know the Bf 109 G-6 or the Fw 190 A-8 as fighters, had no problem in dealing with anything the enemy threw at them.

The OKL knew what was in store for 1944. They were totally aware a huge aerial battle was in the horizon; even more intense than it was during 1943.

Disband the ZGs, reduce the production of twin engined fighters to only maintain an adequate night fighter force to take care of the RAF bombers.
Cancell the production of bombers. Convert all bomber crewmen to fighter pilots. All these steps should have been taken when 1943 was ending.

It is not daring to affirm no less than 5 jagdgruppen -four gruppe each- could have spawned from such measures. In addition to the JGs we know today, we would be speaking about JG 666, JG 777, JG 1000, JG 2000 and JG 3000....and of more horrific losses the USAAF would have had to take, and possibly of a significant protraction of the conflict.

Cheers!

[Udet]

Charlie...I agree with you.

I have to admit i was surprised to read such comments on the Me 410 if you take into account it´s the russians speaking.

It is one of the very rare times when i´ve come across an allied account that confirms German aircraft retained high quality workmanship until the very end of the war, even if the Me 410 ended production in late 1944.

I have met a German pilot and i asked if he had to endure the consequences of "poor workmanship" in his Bf 109 when flying combat missions during 1945, a flat no was his response.

Charles have you come across any videos of Me 410 in test flights firing their nose ordnance? I have not...but i´d love to.

I have films Bf 109 -possibly made for propaganda purposes- where the 109 is firing the nose cannon and both MG 131 and the fire burst is quite impressive. So i would like to see a Me 410 firing its nose kit of six 2cm cannons, a hurricane of fire sounds like modest...

[Civettone]

Udet, I've read it from page 6 (as you suggested).
I still have some sympathy for the RLM keeping the Zerstörer in production because the situation in 1943 was still promising for aircraft with long-range interceptors with a heavy armament who do not have to fear escort fighters. And the fuel issue wasn't going to be decided on the use of those few Me 410s. I'm also not concerned about the rear gunner getting killed. The real reason why I'm against the Me 410 was that you could build 4 Bf 109s in the same time frame. That's really the key issue in my book.

I disagree with stopping bomber production. Germany still needed an offensive air weapon, at least against the Russians. Also, converted bomber pilots were rarely good fighter pilots (though good Sturm pilots). And what are you going to do with the rest of the bomber crews? And what if you restore air superiority over Germany? Build the bomber force up again? I think that will prove to be impossible, and then the fate of Germany is sealed in any case because the enemy could stop building interceptors and stick to bombers and escort fighters. And then you can start all over again...

Kris

[Udet]

Those few Me 410s? What about the Bf 110s of II./ZG 1 taking part in daylight missions during the summer of 1944? And what about the twin engined planes serving in the zerstörergruppen during the whole 1944?

In January 1944, the whole zerstörerverbande had ~290 planes (Bf 110s, Ju 88s and Me 210s).

Are you sure on the "few Me 410s" part? stab., I., and II./ZG 26 maintained
~80 zerstörer in strenght during the summer months of 1944.

80 planes might seem a tricky number...even if half the number of planes were serviceable that would mean 200,000 liters of fuel to put them in the air.

How many Bf 109 G-6s would you put in the air with 200,000 liters of fuel? Answer= 500.

500 Bf 109 G-6= 500 pilots
40 Me 410 A = 80 men (pilot-rear gunner).

So during the summer of 1944, a critical moment in the aerial battle over the Reich, 80 men were consuming the fuel that could have put 500 single engined fighter pilots in the air to deal with Mustangs and heavy bombers.

Does this sound like efficiency to you?

Me 410 A-1 =5000 liters (internal fuel)
Bf 110 =1270 liters (internal fuel)
Bf 109 G-6 =400 liters (internal fuel)

A single Me 410 A-1 with fuel tanks loaded swallowed the fuel of a flight of 12.5 Bf 109s.

As late as in december 1944, IV./ZG 26 and II./ZG 76 continue to have ~90 zerstörer in strenght.

Along with the fuel consumption issue, i too did mention the fact of the engines and fuselages that could instead have been utilized to produce more Bf 109s and other fighters.

Nowhere did i suggest the "fuel issue was decided on the use of those few Me 410s". I was referring to the whole twin engined fighters deployed for daylight combat missions.

From the numbers i am presenting here it is more than clear the zerstörergruppen swallowed fuel that could have helped either increasing the number of sorties of the available jagdgeschwadern or in creatind new single engined fighter units; not to decide the issue but certainly to have an impact.

[CharlesBronson]

Nice data and numbers Udet.

Charles have you come across any videos of Me 410 in test flights firing their nose ordnance? I have not...but i´d love to.

I got some of the Me-410 flying, not firing, I keep on the search for it.

[Civettone]

Udet;

- there's no shortage of rear gunners, especially not when taking the Ju 87 and other bombers out of production. Let's stick to pilots, ok?

- Fuel production dropped below the fuel consumption in June 1944. So up to that time there were no Bf 109s being grounded because of the Me 410. Up til that time the Luftwaffe got something like 200,000 ton a month. I think that puts your 200 ton into perspective.

- you mention 5000 l internal fuel but you know just as well as I do that you don't need to fill them up all the way. The Me 410 could fly at least three times as far as a Bf 109. So bring back that 200,000 liters to 75,000...

Kris

[Morai_Milo]

Are you sure on the "few Me 410s" part? stab., I., and II./ZG 26 maintained ~80 zerstörer in strenght during the summer months of 1944.

Zerstörergeschwader 26

StabZG26/I./ZG26/II./ZG26 (month end)
May - 5/20/50 > 75
June - 2/33/39 > 74
July - 3/15/19 > 37
Aug - 3/74/0 - 77
Sept - 4/48/nil - 52

Only in Aug did the units come near to 80 a/c, total.

As late as in december 1944, IV./ZG 26 and II./ZG 76 continue to have ~90 zerstörer in strenght.

IV./ZG26 went from 1 410 at month beginning to 12 at month end and II./ZG76 went from 57 at month beginning to 37 410s at month end for Dec 1944.

Zerstörergeschwader 76