What of the Me 410?

[Erich]

back on topic, can we please ? put the P-38 varinats in another thread.

flying very dark grey-black Me 410's, Ritterkreuzträger Dietrich Puttfarken and his 5./KG 51 would attack RAF 4 engine bombers on their way back to base. On the night of April 11/12, 1944 he and his bordfünker shot down 3 bombers. Shortly after on the 22/23rd of April 1944 he again shot down 2 RAF bombers but in return was shot down, his Me 410A-1, coded 9K+MN smashing into the ground near Cambridge

Erich ~

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

The L was more manoeverable and could reach 443mph.

Sorry Erich... I gotta reply, if Cheddar wants to continue it we can start a new thread....

Chedder - The P-38L was almost identical to the late model P-38J, the main difference being the L had two more fuel tanks, one on the outside of each engine in the wing. They had the same engines, they had the same power assist ailerons, they had the same dive-recovery flaps, etc... But the J model was a fair bit lighter, and that made it equally fast, more manuverable, and gave it a faster climb.

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Lunatic

[CharlesBronson]

Another Me-210 with very heavy armament was the Hungarian made Me-210 Ca-1 wich have a 40mm Bofors L/60 AA gun mounted below front fuselage.

This very powerful weapon was can shoot masive 1,1 kilogram HE-T shells at 811 meters per second or 1,3 AP shells a 805 m/s .
The rate of fire was 120 rpm . It was manually loaded by the rear gunner with 4 round clips, and it carry 7 clips plus 1 one already inserted in the cannon.



This particular version scored some victories against B-24 and soviet bombers, mostly Il-4 and tu-2.

[Udet]

I do think the Me 410, along with the Butcher Bird, has perhaps the most sinister looks of any plane of the war.

Have you seen photos of the Asian Paper Wasp? An insect which is very aggressive; that is what the Me 410 looks resemble in my perception.

As I did say, I am convinced the Me 410 could certainly not outmanouver a single engine USAAF or RAF fighter, but it did not imply at all it was a piece of cake.

I recall a veteran of the USAAF telling me of a "famous" ace of the USAAF who got killed in combat with a Me 410. Sadly i do not recall the name.

The few books where i ve read info on the Me 410 are all wanting in my opinion.

For example, the B version of the Me 410 carried more powerful engines than the P-38, having two 1,900 hp DB engines. The Me 410 was somewhat heavier, not extremely signifcant though.

Erich sent me a message once telling me Fritz Stehle is one pilot who was a succesful Me 410 Zerstörer pilot (ended flying the Me 262 in the last weeks of the war).

While I find all the info here interesting, i still think the Me 410 is some sort of a "gap" in the assessment of aircraft who saw action over Europe in the war.

I think one thing is clear, Germany would have been better off without the 110/210/410. For every 110/210/410 built it could have had two Bf109's. Had the engines not been wasted in these planes, they might have allowed Tank to pursue a proper liquid cooled design. The concept of the 110 as a long range day fighter was hopelessly flawed. Other planes could have been adapted or designed specifically to fill the night fighter role.

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Lunatic

[cheddar cheese]

I disagree to an extent. The 110 became a great nightfighter, and while the 210 wasnt terribly great, the 410 was superb. I agree that it would have made more sence for the production of Fw-190's/Bf-109's at the later stages of the war however.

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

I disagree to an extent. The 110 became a great nightfighter, and while the 210 wasnt terribly great, the 410 was superb. I agree that it would have made more sence for the production of Fw-190's/Bf-109's at the later stages of the war however.

Yes it became a superb night fighter, but there were other planes that could have filled that role, or a dedicated night fighter could have been developed. Furthermore, most 110/210/410's were not night fighters. The project was generally a waste of resources, in particular the somewhat scarce DB engines. One of Germany's big problems in aircraft design was trying design one plane to perform too many mission types.

Again, I have to wonder what might have come out of the FW factories if they'd also been able to design some DB powered planes early in the war? Tank designed the FW190 around the BMW radial only because he had no choice, Messerschmitt had a lock on all DB inlines - many of which were wasted on 110/210/410's.

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Lunatic

[cheddar cheese]

Yes I agree with all those points. Tank could have made some great aircraft with use of the DB-605, heck, even the Italians created some great fighters with the use of it.

[CharlesBronson]

There was a bunch of good germans single and twin engine fighters that should be cancelled due this"engine sharing" problem.

For example :

FW-187:

This aircraft was equipedd with the little ( 19,7 liters) Jumo 210GA de 700hp, but his design was keeping in mind the DB series.
Even so underpowered this slender aircraft can reach 530 K/h (A-0 series)
The V6 flew with a pair of DB600Aa of 1075 hp, the 32,7 liter Mercedes engine was a huge change for this figther and push it to the amazing at time ( 1939) 636 Km/h.





Other good aircraft ruined by the low DB-601 production was the fast He-100

[cheddar cheese]

Yep. I think both the Falke and the He-100 would have faired better in combat than the planes that were ordered instead of them (Me-110, Me-109)

[Udet]

Does anyone happen to know the name of any "famous" or noted USAAF ace who was reported getting shot down and killed by a Me 410?

An interesting question would be: why do the allies claim to have had marvelous twin-engined fighters (P-38 and Mosquito), while from the bulk of their reports all German twin-engined fighters get prescribed the "no match against our fighters" formula.

In view of all the manipulations the allies have conducted on so many matters and issues of the war, I do think doubt is necessary as well on the Me 410.

That the Me 410 might have had high losses can be very true (fundamentally on daylight Defense of the Reich duties), but that is another story. That does not make it hopeless.

The fact the Me 410 put the Luftwaffe back over England in significant numbers in 1944 can be very revealing, don´t you think?

So (i) it was either not that easy for Mosquitos or for any other allied fighters to caught at all, or (ii) perhaps the allies also manipulate their alleged "total saturation" of air space over France and the Channel in 1944 allowing swarms of Me410s to fly, cross the Channel and conduct their tasks over the island, or (iii) had such air saturation been so brutal, as depitced, the allied pilots might not have been that effcient in intercepting.

I agree with RG there however; it was how I opened this thread. The materials, engines and laborforce devoted to produce the rough 1,400 Me410s could have delivered the Germans, at least, 2000 more single engine fighters.

I would say in excess of 2800 more single engine fighters. Adding in the failed 210 and later 110's, and we are talking something on the order of 6000 more single engine fighters.

Can you give some details on this overwhelming success of the 410 over Britain in 1944? How many planes did they shoot down? How many did the loose? How many such sorties were accomplished?

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Lunatic

[Chocks away!]

But all these planes gave a good account of themselves as night fighters/heavy fighters

[Chocks away!]

Originally Posted by GT

As we all know, the Me 410 Hornisse was intended to replace the Me 210. The Me 410 was the result of trying to produce a Zerstörer after the failure with the Me 210. Me 410 was better than to any twin-engine German Zerstörer but it couldn't not hold its own against Allied fighters. Many Rüstsätze were produced for example an installment of guns up to 50 mm caliber and W Gr 21 rockets .

The main variant was the Me 410-B series (C, D, H did not enter operational status). Me 410 was withdrawn from combat by the end of 1944 because of the need to produce fighters. As only merely 1 160 a/c had been built when the production of the Me 410 ceased in Sept 1944 it made no important role in the air war over Germany.

Me 410 in combat

The night of 13-14 July 1943, FL/Lt Bunting, 85 Squadron flying a Mosquito XII on a night interception patrol shot down a Me 410 the a/c turned over on its back and dived vertically into the sea. It was the first Me 410 to be destroyed over Britain. Two nights later another was shot down by 85 Squadron. On 29 July a 3rd fell to the guns of the Mosquito from 256 Squadron and all 3 Me 410s was from VGruppe/KG 2.

22 Feb 1944, Hptm. Eduard Tratt the highest scorer Zerstörer pilot claiming 38 a/c in the air, 26 on the ground, 24 tanks, 312 trucks and 33 anti-a/c guns took over command of II./ZG76 in Sept 1943 and he made an foolhardy single-handed attack on a bomber formation near Nordhausen/Harz and was of course killed in the process, the escort FW 190s and Bf 109s from JG300 was unable to help him. The only eye-witness was Oblt. Prokopp who was killed a short time later when his Me 410 was rammed by a P-47.

13 May 1944 , One of the most disastrous missions for II./ZG76 was when they was jumped by 20 P-51s and 12 a/c were written of, many aircrews was lost and the US bomber force flew on unhindered to Poznan. Obefelwebel Wolfgang Martin rammed a B-17 with his damaged Me 410 after ordering his crew to bale out.

2 July 1944, I./ZG76 had notable mission when together with I./ZG 1 (Me 110) and II./JG 27 (Bf 109G) destroyed 45 a/c in a big air battle over Budapest, 34 were bombers and 8 were claimed by I./ZG76 without loss.
The Me 410 proved also to be quite a formidable adversary for the Mosquito's in the baby blitz 1943-1944 and one of the last units to operate the Me 410 was IV./ZG26 based in Norway.

http://www.ww2.web64.dk/fly/images/ger/images/me410.jpg

Cheers
GT

He did all that in an me 410? There should be more imformation on 410 aces around

[Erich]

just to make it perfectly clear, there was never a Me 410 night fighter. the a/c was used for intruder work and there is a difference....the a/c was never fitted with night fighter radar and used on operations

E ~