What other fighters could have been made available to the marines at Battle of Midway

[pinsog]

Already answered in this very thread:



So yes, there were P-38s that were combat capable in May 1942.

I read that earlier and it didn't sink in. Thank you.



Looks like 2 dozen AAF P38's would have been perfect to equip Midway with. Any thoughts?

[RCAFson]

But nothing really changed that much between the Marine fighters at Midway and early Guadalcanal. The units at Guadalcanal, especially the early ones, weren't that much better prepared. The famous fighter leader at G'canal, Marion Carl, was present in the Midway fight (flying F4F-3 and credited with a Zero) but otherwise most Marine units at G'canal saw their first combat there. And Marine F4F tactics at G'canal were improvised as they went, and in many cases don't fit the standard thumbnail sketch of tactics evolution v the Zero (for example later in the campaign the Marines sometimes sought to dogfight Zeroes, while the IJN units sought to 'hit and run'). The tactical situations at G'canal were often different, OTOH that of VMF-221 at Midway was not that terribly unfavorable, outnumbered, but they were above the Japanese force when the combat began.

You can't conclude much from one combat anyway, but I think it's worth noting that VMF-221 thought the F4F-3 was a much superior a/c to the F2A-3, even if some of the written accounts saying so may have been influenced by hindsight But it's not a just a conclusion outside observers reached. Also, though it's subdividing an already very small sample, the F4F's record v Zero in this combat was not so far below its general level of parity in kill ratio: 4 Zeroes were credited to the Marines, the two most credible to each F2A and F4F, and one Zero was downed by the USMC fighters (another certainly by AA) and another Zero pilot died of wounds though managed to land his a/c, v 2 F4F's downed.

Anyway, in not much later months Marine fighter units had a pretty good record v Zeroes, in a period of limited action by Army fighters; but Army P-39's in New Guinea in the few months between Midway and the start of the G'canal campaign had a much tougher go v Zeroes, similarly couldn't add much at Gudalcanal due to lack of altitude capability (partly due to special factor wrt O2 equipment which didn't pertain in NG). Again these were often missions against escorted higher flying twin engine enemy bombers at G'canal and Port Moresby (in many cases though not all cases in either place), rather than the single incident v a carrier strike at Midway. But in general US Army fighters didn't do as well as USN and USMC ones v Zeroes in 1942.

Joe

According to The First Team (p337), only "one or two" A6Ms were shot down by the Marine fighters, who started the combat with a considerable altitude advantage. of the 23 USMC fighters 15 were lost, and only 2 were combat ready after landing.

[RCAFson]

Everyone seems to concentrate on P39's and P40's.

Yes, IMHO, the USMC should have requested several squadrons worth of CCF built Hawker Hurricanes, the only North American built fighter that could hope to cope with the Zero.

[pinsog]

Yes, IMHO, the USMC should have requested several squadrons worth of CCF built Hawker Hurricanes, the only North American built fighter that could hope to cope with the Zero.

Historically, the Hurricane didn't do well at all against the Zero. If P38's were operational at that time, that would have been THE airplane for intercepting a bombing raid.

[RCAFson]

Historically, the Hurricane didn't do well at all against the Zero. If P38's were operational at that time, that would have been THE airplane for intercepting a bombing raid.

Historically, the Hurricanes never had a dream setup like the USMC had on Midway, where they had lots of advance warning and an altitude advantage prior to engaging. The Hurricane XII could outclimb, outrun, outturn and had a better ceiling than anything the Marines had at Midway and had to do better, with the same pilots against the IJNAF.

[oldcrowcv63]

Yes, IMHO, the USMC should have requested several squadrons worth of CCF built Hawker Hurricanes, the only North American built fighter that could hope to cope with the Zero.

That choice (Hurricane) might have been a bit (see below) better than the F2A & F4F combination assuming they were flown by pilots familiar with the huricane. However it would have totally eliminated the option to conduct an escorted strike which is too desirable an option to neglect even if Simard did so.

Historically, the Hurricane didn't do well at all against the Zero. If P38's were operational at that time, that would have been THE airplane for intercepting a bombing raid.

I suspect that the VMF squadron pilots had problems precisely because they didn't use whatever altitude advantage they might have had to best advantage and couldn't resist the urge to dogfight. The reputation of the early F2A was as a premier dogfighter. Whatever later developments did to its standing in that regard, I doubt the Marine pilots would have been loathe to try it out as such. Consider the short time between the British/Dutch experience to and Midway to absorb the lessons and the fact that the two types of aircraft (B339 and B449 were NOT the same aircraft as the USN/USMC F2A-3s). It has been said before in this forum that USN/USMC had some early success because they studied deflection shooting more than many if not most other air arms. reading accounts of the FEAF in the PI and Java, this seems to be borne out. How would adding Hurricanes, P-38s, FW-190s, P-51s or Spitfires have changed the outcome of this battle? It didn't turn on the results over or at Midway. It didn't matter how badly the island was bombed by the aircraft in the IJN strike package. The runway was back in operation very quickly which contributed in a substantial way to the battle's outcome strangely enough....

WRT tactics to counter the A6M, aside from Boom and Zoom developed for the USA by Chennault in China, there was the Thach Weave, implemented for the first time on this date 6/4/42 because the Navy had experience with the A6M and as yet, the Marines hadn't except perhaps at Wake, which didn't help much.

[tyrodtom]

Of the 124 aircraft based at midway, there was not one liquid cooled engine, let alone a Merlin engine. You'd have to ship in some mechanics with those Hurricanes.

Of course as short as the battle was for Midway itself, that wouldn't matter. But they wouldn't have known that beforehand.

[RCAFson]

That choice (Hurricane) might have been a bit (see below) better than the F2A & F4F combination assuming they were flown by pilots familiar with the huricane. However it would have totally eliminated the option to conduct an escorted strike which is too desirable an option to neglect even if Simard did so.

The Hurricane had been using drop tanks from early/mid 1941.

[oldcrowcv63]

Of the 124 aircraft based at midway, there was not one liquid cooled engine, let alone a Merlin engine. You'd have to ship in some mechanics with those Hurricanes.

Of course as short as the battle was for Midway itself, that wouldn't matter. But they wouldn't have known that beforehand.

Exactly, and that's important in both the short and long run.

[RCAFson]

Of the 124 aircraft based at midway, there was not one liquid cooled engine, let alone a Merlin engine. You'd have to ship in some mechanics with those Hurricanes.

Of course as short as the battle was for Midway itself, that wouldn't matter. But they wouldn't have known that beforehand.

Same for P38/P39/P40.

[oldcrowcv63]

The Hurricane had been using drop tanks from early/mid 1941.

50-58 gallon drop tanks on the F4F extended its combat range by about 50 miles at most out to 225 miles or from about 800 miles to about 900 for total range. How does that compare to the Hurricane's combat range with similar sized drops ot whatever size it actually used?

[tyrodtom]

About June 5th, the auxilliary carrier Long Island (AVG-1 or CVE-1) was cruising off the west coast providing cover to Batdiv 4 consisting 7 old pre-1930 battleships and as many destroyers under Adm. William Pye. Acting as a shield for the west coast (?) or as much to keep him out of trouble while Midway was fought according to Lundstrom. The Long Island's airwing at that time but in August carried 12 non-folding wing SBD and 19 folding wing F4F-4 aircraft to Guadacanal. It could probably carry about 15-20 P-40 or P-39 aircraft for a flyoff to Midway in a pinch or maybe 3 P-38s . Flight deck dimensions were about 400+ ft by about 60 ft I believe.

I don't think you could pack the upper deck that full of Army aircraft, they can't be catapult launched, AFAIK. You'd need to leave part of that upper deck clear for the first few aircraft to fly off.

[syscom3]

A bit off topic. But since the issue of flying fighters to Midway was mentioned; it reminded me of a thread I started some years ago about the French Frigate Schoals located half way between Midway and Kaui.

Go to post #1

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/tec...ds-3451-2.html (Pacific Airfields)

[pbfoot]

I don't think you could pack the upper deck that full of Army aircraft, they can't be catapult launched, AFAIK. You'd need to leave part of that upper deck clear for the first few aircraft to fly off.

They used the Wasp IIRC to fly a good number (47) of Spits off for Malta in spring 42

[tyrodtom]

Same for P38/P39/P40.

Some of the Army B-17 and B-26 mechanics, might have experience with Allisons, but in that time period none would have even seen a Merlin, let alone have any experience with one.