Why fabric and wood materials were used on F4Us

[AL Schlageter]

Early canvas was made of linen

Modern canvas is usually made of cotton

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by AL Schlageter

Early canvas was made of linen

Modern canvas is usually made of cotton

And aircraft fabric is referred to as either Grade A cotton Mil-C-5646 or British (Irish) Linen 7F1. You make tents out of canvas!

[ccheese]

Not hardly.... most navy ships run on NSFO (Navy Special Fuel Oil).
Some grades of it are so thick it has to be heated before it will flow
through a hose or a line.

Charles

Originally Posted by ppopsie

In my opinion the wood and fabrics were easy to dispose of. If the carrier needed more speed, just put them into extra boilers.....

[Velius]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

actuality, holes are very easy to patch up if they were under a certain size and didn't require stitching.

In my class we were told that besides keeping the weight down, it was easy to repair.

Take a metal control surface for example, if there was a bullet hole in it, the metal would have to be dressed and then a patch plate would have to go on top of it. Depeding on the size of the damage, this patch needs to be a certain size and needs to contain a certain number of rivets in order to restore it's original strength. Whereas a fabric control surface with a bullet hole (depending on size) needs only a circular patch to be glued on.

I need to ask this question again in my class; to be sure. I also know that the methods of repair for both metal and fabric is described in the handbook AC 43.13-1B offered by the DOT.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Velius

In my class we were told that besides keeping the weight down, it was easy to repair.

Take a metal control surface for example, if there was a bullet hole in it, the metal would have to be dressed and then a patch plate would have to go on top of it. Depeding on the size of the damage, this patch needs to be a certain size and needs to contain a certain number of rivets in order to restore it's original strength. Whereas a fabric control surface with a bullet hole (depending on size) needs only a circular patch to be glued on.

EXACTLY!

Originally Posted by Velius

I need to ask this question again in my class; to be sure. I also know that the methods of repair for both metal and fabric is described in the handbook AC 43.13-1B offered by the DOT.

AC 43.13-1B Chapter 2 section 4 for fabric repairs, Chapter 4 section 4 for metal repairs. I deal with fabric and sheet metal repairs on an almost daily basis.

[ppopsie]

If one make repairs on ailerons or other control surfaces he or she has to determin its cg position around the hinge axis before return the repaired thing back to service, to prevent possible occurence of the flutters, and hence, degradation of the Vne value.

I couldn't remember on what section or para this was written in the FAA AC43 because I gave the book away years ago but what I can remember is that the rule shall be more strictly adhered to on the high speed aircraft. This also has to be written in every maintenance/repair manuals of any types of aircraft including the ones I can download and read on this forum.

In real life however small breakage(s) or hole(s) just on fabric covered control surfaces may and could be simply patched up in field which I used to do.

From these it can be assumed that if the damage on a control surfaces, may be an aileron, was larger than just a hole on the skin, in fabric or metal, it has to be repaired in a shop after removing from the airplane wing. Is that so and if you got a shot up and damaged Corsair on a carrier you got to change the damaged control surface(s) with new or repaired one(s) to get the plane back into the service.

That is one more thing I'd like to know. I never read any book in any languages mentioning about what were done on the WW2 carriers.

BTW where are the Martin Mars stored in?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by ppopsie

If one make repairs on ailerons or other control surfaces he or she has to determin its cg position around the hinge axis before return the repaired thing back to service, to prevent possible occurence of the flutters, and hence, degradation of the Vne value.

It depends upon the size of the repair and the manufacturer usually gives guidelines for that

Originally Posted by ppopsie

I couldn't remember on what section or para this was written in the FAA AC43 because I gave the book away years ago but what I can remember is that the rule shall be more strictly adhered to on the high speed aircraft. This also has to be written in every maintenance/repair manuals of any types of aircraft including the ones I can download and read on this forum.

160 knots and above

Originally Posted by ppopsie

In real life however small breakage(s) or hole(s) just on fabric covered control surfaces may and could be simply patched up in field which I used to do.

I've seen duct tape used!

Originally Posted by ppopsie

From these it can be assumed that if the damage on a control surfaces, may be an aileron, was larger than just a hole on the skin, in fabric or metal, it has to be repaired in a shop after removing from the airplane wing. Is that so and if you got a shot up and damaged Corsair on a carrier you got to change the damaged control surface(s) with new or repaired one(s) to get the plane back into the service.

Ground crews might already had extra ailerons covered and painted ready for installation.

Originally Posted by ppopsie

That is one more thing I'd like to know. I never read any book in any languages mentioning about what were done on the WW2 carriers.

In what respect?

Originally Posted by ppopsie

BTW where are the Martin Mars stored in?

The last ones are in Canada..

[Snautzer]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

C



Ballooning will occur at high speed with deteriorating fabric although the faster the aircraft went, the more the fabric control surface was subject to ballooning.
I believe they started out as fabric control surfaces and were later changed to metal, but I believe the trim tabs remained wood.

Yes, they encountered this first with high speed dives. And with the more powerfull engines they would have seen this a lot more. Quite a few accidents happened before they figured out what was ripping the control surfaces.

What i didnt think off was the deteriorating fabric. Quite right you are. That would have become an issue of maintenance offcourse.

Regards

Snautzer

[ppopsie]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

In what respect?

All of them, I would say. There were a host of books or magazines about the carriers existed but few describes about how the people aboard were organized, worked and, in particular, lived.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by ppopsie

All of them, I would say. There were a host of books or magazines about the carriers existed but few describes about how the people aboard were organized, worked and, in particular, lived.

If I understand what you're looking for is the way the organization is structured. If so, it hasn't changed much from WW2 from what I understand.

Aboard the ship you'll have your respective squadrons - as far as the maintenance folks they are broken up by shops - airframes, power plant, electrical, etc. As far as doing fabric work for example, I would of think that would of been an airframe function possibly done by an aviation rigger or metal smith. Squadron maintenance officers would be the one to determine what spare parts should be maintained as well as when a "Squadron" will do an extensive repair. If there is something outside the squadron's capability its sent to IMA or "Intermediate" Maintenance activity" or also known as AIMD. "Intermediate" maintenance (some rebuilding) would be done at that activity. If the aircraft is really damaged or close to an overhaul it goes to depot level, at that point major overhauls and rebuilds are done.

Now where does this fit in with fabric recovering? My guess would be that minor repairs and recovering jobs would be done at the squadron level. Larger jobs would be done at "IMA" and more than likely an IMA would exist aboard the carrier.

Each shop within a squadron or IMA could work in shifts - 12 on 12 off or 24 on 12 off. In some cases you may be attached to a "watch" detail where you will pull a watch during your non-working hours.

I was in the Naval Reserve for 6 years and was actually attached to a carrier augmentation unit attached to the Constellation, but I left the unit before i ever had a chance to on board ship. Hope this answered some of your questions. As stated, I don't think changed that much since WW2 but this was what I experienced and talking to some WW2 vets, it sounded like they went through a similar situation.

[ppopsie]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

If I understand what...

Thanks, FLYBOY J. As I understand there were
Carrier>Air wing>Squadron>maintenance division>each shop
Am I correct?

I have been interested in how many people were assigned to each section/division or duty aboard of an Essex class carrier or similar, or any ship in WW2. To my best knowledge the Essex class carrier had a crew of around 2800+ in average.
And, how so many of the USN men were trained to became professionals in such a short period during the war.

I met an ex-USN test pilot a few years ago at our flying club. I talked with him for a while and I asked a question to him how the men can endure such a life aboard of a carrier which should have 5000 male(then) people on it. Then he gave me a short & sweet one "it's duty." That got me very nicely.

There are too many things about naval or any aviation of any kind of any nation attract me but.....BTW I am now worrying about the FIRE in LA area.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by ppopsie

Thanks, FLYBOY J. As I understand there were
Carrier>Air wing>Squadron>maintenance division>each shop
Am I correct?

Exactly!

Originally Posted by ppopsie

I have been interested in how many people were assigned to each section/division or duty aboard of an Essex class carrier or similar, or any ship in WW2. To my best knowledge the Essex class carrier had a crew of around 2800+ in average.

That you're probably going to have to get from a WW2 veteran or you might be able to do some research on that. One of our members, R Leonard's dad was a distinguished naval aviator, he might have some info on unit personnel numbers.

Originally Posted by ppopsie

And, how so many of the USN men were trained to became professionals in such a short period during the war.

In one way or another I thin they were all professionals.

Originally Posted by ppopsie

I met an ex-USN test pilot a few years ago at our flying club. I talked with him for a while and I asked a question to him how the men can endure such a life aboard of a carrier which should have 5000 male(then) people on it. Then he gave me a short & sweet one "it's duty." That got me very nicely.

Yep - that's why I'm glad I never did the boat!

Originally Posted by ppopsie

There are too many things about naval or any aviation of any kind of any nation attract me but.....BTW I am now worrying about the FIRE in LA area.

Are you there?

[ccheese]

Originally Posted by ppopsie

BTW where are the Martin Mars stored ?

The Hawaii Mars and the Caroline Mars are the only two left,
and they are currently for sale !

Charles

[ccheese]

Originally Posted by ppopsie

I met an ex-USN test pilot a few years ago at our flying club. I talked with him for a while and I asked a question to him how the men can endure such a life aboard of a carrier which should have 5000 male(then) people on it. Then he gave me a short & sweet one "it's duty." That got me very nicely.

I served on two carriers and had no problem. Most pilots were part of the
air group and were not attached to the ship. They just deployed for six
months, then went back to their air station. Life on an aircraft carrier is
choice duty. Hardly rocks, got everything you need, good (not great)
food, a large medical department, commissary (Ships store, laundry,
"gedunk", barber shop, etc.). The big problem with serving on a carrier
is riding liberty boats. The carrier draws so much water they seldom
tie up at a pier. Usually have to anchor a mile or so off-shore. Picture
a small boat full of drunken sailors, and you'll see what I mean.

Charles

[ppopsie]

>In one way or another
To train hundreds thousands young men to that level in such a short period during the war must be tremendous, if one think about the education system of today.

I was in Chino in 1982 for a month and half taking ppl flying lessons. If the flyng boats were available today they could possibly be operating from one of the reservoirs in the area.

How was the food on carriers? I am interested in that because I love cooking too. Foods shall form a part of the morale in there.

Young men might cause problems sometime while on months' duty thinking of myself. I sometimes hear things like that happen in Yokosuka but carriers normally can get the pier there anyway. I don't like our coast guard to spend our tax to seach for drunken men (& women) who got overboard.

How was the pay while on sea? I heard some of JMSDF men make a big money by saving allowances while serving at a remote island for months.