Wildcat VI vs Bf 109 G near Norway

Chocks away! · 06-15-2005, 08:32 AM

In March 1945 wildcats of No.882 sqn from HMS searcher shot down a flight of 4 bf 109 Gs,( i'm guessing late Gs . G-14s or G-6 AS or whatever) off the coast of Norway ,for apparently no loss.

Why did the German pilots perform so poorly when they almost certainly had superior mounts?
It seems weird. 109s aren't early Zeros!
(or Fw-200 Condors for that matter).

Clave · 06-15-2005, 08:34 AM

Surprise attack?

evangilder · 06-15-2005, 08:45 AM

Erich might have some info on that. If the Wildcats got the jump on them, it could happen.

R Leonard · 06-15-2005, 11:43 AM

Actually I think it was the other way around.

Chocks away! · 06-15-2005, 01:48 PM

How's that? Care to ellaborate on that?

DAVIDICUS · 06-15-2005, 02:46 PM

The Mk. IV was the FM-2 variant. The story does sound a bit hard to swallow. It may not be true. I don't know where you obtained this information but I read the same thing at:

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevo...other/f4f.html

I noticed some other glaring errors on the site as well such as the performance specifications listed for the FM-2 variant.

"Max climb rate at sea level 2890ft/min. Best climb 3650ft/min."

and

"Armament: Four Colt-Browning 0.50 guns, 1720 rounds total." (I have difficulty believing that it carried 430 rounds per gun)

R Leonard · 06-15-2005, 04:03 PM

On 26 March 1945, FM-2's from 882 Squadron (Lieut Comdr. GAM Flood, RNVR) off HMS Searcher, escorting a flight of Avengers along the coast of Norway, was attacked by a flight of eight III Gruppe JG 5 Me-109Gs. The Wildcats were credited with downing four of the Me-109Gs at a cost of one Wildcat damaged. A fifth 109 was claimed as damaged. As near as can be determined from available Luftwaffe loss lists, there were three 109’s lost, 412398 (Fw Hermannn Jaeger), 782139 (Uffz Gottfried Rösch), and 782270 Fw Heinrich Dreisbach). A fourth 109 crashed on landing, however I cannot independently determine if this was pilot error or from battle damage. Damage to this airplane has been noted as 25%.

Rich

FLYBOYJ · 06-15-2005, 04:06 PM

That's great stuff RL! - It's hard for me to picture a Wildcat shooting down an ME-109, but I would of love to have seen that!

Chocks away! · 06-15-2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Leonard

On 26 March 1945, FM-2's from 882 Squadron (Lieut Comdr. GAM Flood, RNVR) off HMS Searcher, escorting a flight of Avengers along the coast of Norway, was attacked by a flight of eight III Gruppe JG 5 Me-109Gs. The Wildcats were credited with downing four of the Me-109Gs at a cost of one Wildcat damaged. A fifth 109 was claimed as damaged. As near as can be determined from available Luftwaffe loss lists, there were three 109’s lost, 412398 (Fw Hermannn Jaeger), 782139 (Uffz Gottfried Rösch), and 782270 Fw Heinrich Dreisbach). One 109 crashed on landing, however I cannot independently determine if this was pilot error or from battle damage. Damage to this airplane has been noted as 25%.

Rich

That seems more likely. Still impressive!

DAVIDICUS · 06-15-2005, 05:11 PM

So no Avengers were lost? It would appear so. If all the Avengers made it back including all but one Wildcat, I am more than just a little impressed especially since the Wildcats apparently didn't bounce the Germans as it was the Germans that initiated the assault.

Now imagine for a moment if all the Avengers were lost. The loss of all the Avengers in addition to one of the Wildcats would make for a different impression.

One could assume that by focusing on the bombers, they were not simultaneously playing offense against the Wildcats and suffered high losses through that trade off. Why the trade off? Perhaps they didn't have enough fuel to beat up the Wildcats first and focus on the bombers later.

In any event, a very interesting story.

FLYBOYJ · 06-15-2005, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAVIDICUS

So no Avengers were lost? It would appear so. If all the Avengers made it back including all but one Wildcat, I am more than just a little impressed especially since the Wildcats apparently didn't bounce the Germans as it was the Germans that initiated the assault.

Now imagine for a moment if all the Avengers were lost. The loss of all the Avengers in addition to one of the Wildcats would make for a different impression.

One could assume that by focusing on the bombers, they were not simultaneously playing offense against the Wildcats and suffered high losses through that trade off. Why the trade off? Perhaps they didn't have enough fuel to beat up the Wildcats first and focus on the bombers later.

In any event, a very interesting story.

Indeed....

It's hard to surmise this scenario. Maybe the 109 pilots were cocky? Pilot skill, tactics? Maybe the RN guys were good and the Luftwaffe guys sucked!?! Its hard to say...

I know we got the thread running with the Wildcat vs, the Hurricane, perhaps this will be discussed there?

R Leonard · 06-16-2005, 03:24 PM

Available Luftwaffe credits lists show no claims from this action, so I'd surmise the Avengers didn't get too shot up.

DAVIDICUS · 06-16-2005, 03:40 PM

Which just makes it all the more incredible.

Chocks away! · 06-16-2005, 10:22 PM

I also read about the mauling of a flight of Beaufighters by Focke Wulf 190 s at around the same period. It would seem the Luftwaffe had some good equipment and pilots up there...

Glider · 06-16-2005, 10:45 PM

Chocks, Beaufighters caught by 190's would get a mauling. I read a report by an observer in a beaufighter that was caught by a group of 190's and it wasn't pretty.