Worst aircraft of WW2?

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Yep - just about the same thing.

In the infamous words of "The Fonz", Correctamundo!.



Elvis

[Cromwell]

I heard recently that Ford experimented with a flat alloy 3 cyl radial 2-stroke, with plastic pistons - air cooled !

Apparently, it was a) very light weight b) powerful & c) economical - much more so than the usual 4-cyl upright 4-stroke.

I am not a thermodynamacist but there was something about the interplay between the heat stored by the plastic pistons and the heat conduction of the alloy cylinders and crankcase that made it burn much more completely than usual 2-stroke engines.

I think the plastic used was also 'self -lubing' if you can have such a thing.

Originally Posted by Elvis

An even more common example are the older VW Beetles that had the air-cooled engines ('38-'02).
If you look under the engine, you can see some "tin" plates under the cylinders.
That's baffling, used to ensure the most airflow from the fan is always going across the cylinders.


Elvis

[Elvis]

I know big 3 automakers were experimenting with small 2-stroke engines for automotive use about 15-20 years ago (back when they all had money. Remember the good ol' days?).
Your "plastic" comment suggests this time period.

...because when "The Flivver" was flying...



...there was no such thing as plastic. Bakelite, yes, but not plastic (and notice the powerplant).





Elvis

[Elvis]

Now there was also some experiemental versions of the Flathead V8 that Ford tried to make for aircraft use, by creating the block and heads from aluminum (thus lightening the weight) and pressurizing the cylinders via mechanical forced induction.
It can be seen here, gracing the cover of the October 1952 issue of Hot Rod magazine.



Other "special duty" parts included on the engine, that can seen in the pic are; magneto ignition, an oil filtering system featuring cooling fins and tubluar exhaust manifolds (and if you're sharp, you'll notice the tensioner is on the wrong side of the belt).
Only a few were made and I don't think any ever made it into an actual airplane.



Elvis

[Cromwell]

The Swordfish was built by Fairey - the same people that made the Firefly (great plane) and the Albacore (not so good) and the Barracuda (mixed reports)

See

Aeroplane VE-Day Souvenir Issue May 2005

Also


Fairey Swordfish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Fairey Barracuda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by airboiy

Of course it was...it was a solid design, born out of neccesity (or so I heard).

P.S.-Was the "stringbag" was produced by the same company that produced the Spitfire or the Hurricane?

[Cromwell]

Did that thing Actually Fly !?!

The tailplane looks totally inadequate

Originally Posted by Elvis

...because when "The Flivver" was flying...





Elvis

[FLYBOYJ]

That little Ford plane flew quite well until it spun and killed its pilot/ designer

http://www.airventuremuseum.org/coll...%20Flivver.asp

[airboiy]

Ouch! I guess that's not back to the drawing board!

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

That little Ford plane flew quite well until it spun and killed its pilot/ designer

Ford-EAA Chapt #159 Flivver

Yep.

Originally Posted by Excerpt from Air Venture Museum's Ford Flivver article

The original Ford Flivver was short lived in that Henry Ford’s personal pilot, Harry Brooks, attempted a non-stop flight from Dearborn, Michigan to Florida with the improved second model of the Flivver in February of 1928. For some unknown reason, the Flivver spun into the ocean near Melbourne, Florida and Harry Brooks was lost. Henry Ford felt so discouraged he cancelled the Ford Flivver project and the prototype Flivver 268 was placed in the Ford Museum in 1928.

Elvis

[airboiy]

Poor chap...but still, he knew the risks, just like all pilots. There is always a chance that something will go wrong, leading to disaster. However, it's the courage in pilots that makes them face the unknown every time they lift off the ground.

[The PIPE]

Dear Fellow WW II Av-Fans:

The PIPE Here, with my very FIRST post at WW2aircraft.net...!!!

For a long, LONG time, I've been fascinated by what I started out calling "Stuck-Ugly" (it got "stuck" with an "ugly" appearance), and then came up with a somewhat more appropriate sobriquet...which I believe im Deutsch translates as "Grauerlicher-Greif"...or GRUESOME GRIFFIN...

...none other than the "welded-engine" bomber, the Heinkel He 177, WAS the worst aircraft of WW 2 !

Like "acesman" at http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...html#post49516 (Worst aircraft of WW2?) , "V-1710" at http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...tml#post117412 (Worst aircraft of WW2?) , and maybe "DerAdlerIstGelandet" at http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...tml#post117578 (Worst aircraft of WW2?) have more-or-less said already...

...that Gruesome Griffin was just about the worst aircraft in service during the war...from its fire-prone, "welded-together" DB 606 and 610 engines (as Fat Hermann [Goering] derisively put it on at least two occasions), all-too-light elevator controls (as verified by good ol' Eric Brown of the British Royal Navy, one of the greatest test pilots of all time)...an almost TOTAL lack of servicability due to lack of support from not only Heinkel, but the Luftwaffe's mechanic training program, lack of trained pilots, etc, etc...and add to that the oft-noted diving attack requirement from the RLM, which Ernst Heinkel disagreed with from the beginning, and which WAS finally rescinded by Goering in September 1942...that whole He 177 program for a "heavy bomber", the ONLY one that the Luftwaffe was to ever have, was always a disaster in continuous "happening", AND waiting to happen, ALL at the same time...!!!

Just about the single BEST book I've YET read about the Gruesome Griffin, her high-altitude stablemate the He 274, the never-built, PAPER ONLY design known as the He 277, and the...FOR REAL..."most-built" (but NOT by much) truly "four engined" version of the whole Griffin program, the He 177B (for which FOUR prototypes were built, and three of those FLEW in test flights...NO KIDDING) is the book by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel on the He 177 and her "relatives"...!!!

The Griehl/Dressel book totally SHOOTS DOWN the "cover story" urban legend of the He 277 actually being built (those WERE really He 177Bs!!!) and provides the evidence for this...from dates when the "He 277" design's work would have been "approved", versus actual Heinkel documents shown in the book that read "He 177B-5" dated as late as February 1944...and the three-view G.A. drawing in the Griehl-Dressel book of the "He 177B-5" is basically a DEAD RINGER for the actually built, AND flown, He 177 V101 "truly" four engined prototype example.

The entries at Wikipedia for both the 177 AND 277 (respective links there at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_177 AND http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_277 ) reflect the updated knowledge found (possibly for the very first time) in the Griehl-Dressel volume, which has a newer publishing year (1998 ) than ANY other book on the He 177 "family" of aircraft, and these two authors HAVE published a goodly number of other WW II German aircraft book titles...so my feeling is that what we were all reading, about the "He 177B cover designation" for the He 277 is almost entirely an "urban legend", and from the text and photos in the book (especially of the factory drawings' general arrangements) that a REAL quartet of He 177B prototypes WERE built, with three of them flying...but the US 15th Air Force got to them before Herr Heinkel could do anything more about it, destroying the third and fourth He 177B prototypes in Vienna-area bombing in very early 1944, with the only photographic image remaining of ANY of the four engined He 177s bieng that nose-on, "lonely" looking one of the He 177 V101, sitting on a foggy German airfield all by itself.

Thanks to the "Wings of the Luftwaffe" book by Eric Brown, I found out about the Gruesome One's flying habits...and the Griehl/Dressel book FINALLY pulling the wool from in front of our eyes concerning the He 177B being a real plane (the He 277 REMAINED a paper-ONLY entity!)...I found out a lot more, than I've ever known before on the Gruesome One, and on an "urban legend" that grew up in many, MANY WW II aviation history books surrounding the entire effort to TRY getting a real four engined heavy bomber for the Luftwaffe, and NOT something with "welded-together" engines...!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I don't think the He 177 can be considered the worst. Overall it was a very capable design and would have proven a very advanced and great heavy bomber. It had great performance for an aircraft of its type and it could carry a heavy bomb load as well as good defensive armament.

Its problems were in its coupled engines. This was a very big mistake and caused problems such as catching fire and so forth. The reason the engines were coupled was because of a design spec that the aircraft had to be capable of dive bombing.

This problem however was fixed later on, and the He 177 did serve just fine once it was corrected. Therefore I do not believe the He 177 can even be a contender. Sure it had teething problems (big teething problems as a matter of fact) but all aircraft have them as well.

[Juha]

IMHO one can argue that He 177 was one of the worst a/c, not as a plane but as from POV of war economy, over 1000 was produced with enourmous cost in resources and in training, the plane being very complicated when compared the older German bombers. So much alternative production was lost, some units spent long time in training when they were needed desperately at fronts. And the achievements of the units flying the type were rather limited. B-29 also had many problems and was also a very costly program but in the end it produced results otherwise unachiavable. But soon after the problems of He 177 were mostly solved and while factories were churning out them the change in strategic situation became so obvious that even German High Command noticed that and many He 177s went straight from factory to different dispersal fields all over Germany. Not only plane which suffered that destiny but the timing was critical to Germany.

But as I wrote, the plane itself was better than its popular reputation in Anglo-American world.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Juha

IMHO one can argue that He 177 was one of the worst a/c, not as a plane but as from POV of war economy, over 1000 was produced with enourmous cost in resources and in training, the plane being very complicated when compared the older German bombers. So much alternative production was lost, some units spent long time in training when they were needed desperately at fronts. And the achievements of the units flying the type were rather limited. B-29 also had many problems and was also a very costly program but in the end it produced results otherwise unachiavable. But soon after the problems of He 177 were mostly solved and while factories were churning out them the change in strategic situation became so obvious that even German High Command noticed that and many He 177s went straight from factory to different dispersal fields all over Germany. Not only plane which suffered that destiny but the timing was critical to Germany.

But as I wrote, the plane itself was better than its popular reputation in Anglo-American world.

I certainly agree with you there. From and economic and resources stand point, I think it was a waste. Aircraft wise though, I think the wrap that it gets is a myth. The bugs were eventually worked out of her.

[Cromwell]

Did we list the NATTER already ?


I would NOT have voluntarily got in the cockpit of one of these things if it was the last thing I did - which it probably would be in truth.