Worst aircraft of WW2? (Continued)

[Civettone]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I certainly agree with you there. From and economic and resources stand point, I think it was a waste. Aircraft wise though, I think the wrap that it gets is a myth. The bugs were eventually worked out of her.

Right and then it became more reliable than the other German bombers. But the lack of fuel and emphasis on fighters finished it off.
Just imagine that the Americans had cancelled the expensive and troublesome B-29 project at the end of 1944. It would now have been regarded as the similar He 177.

Then again, at least they didn't use the B-29 on such a massive scale before the bugs were ironed out as they did with the He 177 (supplying the 6th Armee at Stalingrad?).




Cromwell, I disagree on the Natter. By 1945 the Natter was just about the best the Germans had in the pipeline. They no longer had the possibility to train pilots and didn't have the fuel for the aircraft. Now here's an incredibly simply semi-guided heavily armoured rocket fighter which required no trained pilots. Flying faster than any fighter it could and would come in range of enemy bombers, release a volley of very powerful Föhn of R4M rockets (like succesfully used on the Me 262 in the last weeks) which would have meant a certain success.
They were very easy to build and with the engines and pilot recuperated could be build in great numbers, as long as the methanol supply kept up. An ideal stopgap until the arrival of the Enzian and later the Wasserfall.

Or can you come up with better ideas for 1945?

Kris

[Juha]

Hello Civettone
IIRC the only time when Natter was lauched manned the pilot died during the lauch, broken neck IIRC, so no guidance after that.

Juha

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by Civettone

By 1945 the Natter was just about the best the Germans had in the pipeline.
They no longer had the possibility to train pilots and didn't have the fuel for the aircraft.

Kris

I believe the need to put "basically trained" pilots in the air as quickly as possible is what prompted the "Volksjager" competition, and to that end, I understand the Heinkel He162 met this need (not to say the Natter didn't also address that need).



...and if any of that is incorrect, please feel free to "educate" me.


Elvis

[Juha]

Hello Elvis
Eric Brown thought/thinks that He 162 definitely was not a plane for a beginner.

Juha

[Soren]

The He-162 was definitely not a plane for a beginner as applying too much rudder too quickly at high speed would see the a/c come apart. The effectiveness & responsiveness of the He-162's rudder was extreme.

That having been said the He-162 was the most exciting a/c Eric Brown flew, it was extremely aerobatic, possessing great turn performance & roll rate, and Brown enjoyed flying it so much that he used to fly it a lot for fun after the war.

[Elvis]

...stupid history channel...

Thanks for your input guys. I'll try to remember that one in the future.


Elvis

[Cromwell]

Originally Posted by Juha

Hello Elvis
Eric Brown thought/thinks that He 162 definitely was not a plane for a beginner.

Juha

The combined wood-metal structure used in the wings used to peel apart if over stressed

Maybe this was due to slave labour sabotage, or poor glue / attachment technology or just simply bad design I am not sure.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Cromwell

The combined wood-metal structure used in the wings used to peel apart if over stressed

Maybe this was due to slave labour sabotage, or poor glue / attachment technology or just simply bad design I am not sure.

There were issues in the bonding process used on this aircraft, but if done correctly wood/ metal bonding is actually stronger than riveting in many cases.

[Von Frag]

Originally Posted by Cromwell

The combined wood-metal structure used in the wings used to peel apart if over stressed

Maybe this was due to slave labour sabotage, or poor glue / attachment technology or just simply bad design I am not sure.

The glue intended for the 162 and the Ta-154 was no longer available after the Tego (sp?) works was bombed. Or was Tego the bonding glue? I don't remember. The substitute glue they used ate away at the wood causing both a/c to sometimes break up in flight.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Von Frag

The glue intended for the 162 and the Ta-154 was no longer available after the Tego (sp?) works was bombed. Or was Tego the bonding glue? I don't remember. The substitute glue they used ate away at the wood causing both a/c to sometimes break up in flight.

I remember reading something like that as well.

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

I remember reading something like that as well.

Me 3.
I understand it was a high acidity level in the glues they were using later in the war.
Bonded like steel but evenutally would eat away at the wood, causing failure of the bond...or rather, the pieces that were bonded together.


Elvis

[Civettone]

Originally Posted by Juha

Hello Civettone
IIRC the only time when Natter was lauched manned the pilot died during the lauch, broken neck IIRC, so no guidance after that.

Juha

Sure but that was an accident which had nothing to do with the design or concept of the aircraft/rocket. They just forgot to securely close the cockpit hood. Poor pilot was probably knocked unconscious...

Originally Posted by Elvis

I believe the need to put "basically trained" pilots in the air as quickly as possible is what prompted the "Volksjager" competition, and to that end, I understand the

Right. But what the nazi's didn't understand is that there is no value in a 'basically trained pilot'. At least not when used to perform combat in such a Volksjäger design.

Not only would the Volksjäger pilot have been hunted down and shot down by slower aircraft piloted by much more experienced pilots, the He 162 design was chosen based on a lie, that is that the design was already underway while the original design (P.1073 IIRC) was quite different from the later He 162. It seems to me that the original winner of the competition, the Blohm & Voss P.211 project would have made a better aircraft for novice pilots. Best choice would have been the Lippisch P.20 though...

Kris

[GrauGeist]

Originally Posted by Civettone

...the He 162 design was chosen based on a lie, that is that the design was already underway while the original design (P.1073 IIRC) was quite different from the later He 162. It seems to me that the original winner of the competition, the Blohm & Voss P.211 project would have made a better aircraft for novice pilots. Best choice would have been the Lippisch P.20 though...

Kris

The He162 won the competition in the long-run because it required fewer man-hours for construction and it used the Bf109 main-gear.

[Civettone]

Originally Posted by GrauGeist

The He162 won the competition in the long-run because it required fewer man-hours for construction and it used the Bf109 main-gear.

If you've seen the B&V P.211 plans you'll realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE to build a fighter with even less manhours! The simplicity of that design is simply staggering!! That's why initially it won the competition. Then Heinkel started lobbying ...

http://www.luft46.com/bv/bv211-1.gif

Kris

[Venganza]

Originally Posted by Civettone

If you've seen the B&V P.211 plans you'll realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE to build a fighter with even less manhours! The simplicity of that design is simply staggering!! That's why initially it won the competition. Then Heinkel started lobbying ...

http://www.luft46.com/bv/bv211-1.gif

Kris

Gott in Himmel! - that is one simple little plane! If it'd been any simpler, they could've just strapped the pilot to the engine, and have him hold and fire a sub-machinegun.

Venganza