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| Aviation Discussion on the aircraft of WWII. |
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| | #1 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Central Texas
Posts: 260
| The wright flyer question Hello all, I've always wondered about this and I finally remembered to put this question on this site: The Wright brothers were bicycle makers who designed and flew the first heavier than air aircraft (news flash huh? Thanks |
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| | #2 | |
| Senior Member | Quote:
Because it was being flown off of sand? Last edited by Evil_Merlin; 02-18-2008 at 02:04 PM. | |
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| | #3 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Dordrecht
Posts: 4,052
| I believe wheels were considered too heavy, the skids was just the lower struds of the aircraft
__________________ ![]() "To attack 36 aircraft on your own was rather much" - Jan Linzel, D.XXI pilot. |
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| | #4 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,765
| Hi Merlin, >And even that is still under debate today with Alberto Santos-Dumont who was claimed to have flown first Oh well ... I've put a lot of effort into that question, and I couldn't really find out what the Santos-Dumont advocates actually claim. Their line of reasoning I was confronted with was mainly based on a narrow definition of flight (usually disqualifying the Wrights because "they used a catapult"), along with "subtle" hints that the Wrights' flights before 1905 might have been faked. I'm not really interested in re-started such a debate here, but if there's more to Santos-Dumont's claim of priority over the Wrights than listed in my impression above, I'd certainly listen attentively if someone explained it to me. Regards, Henning (HoHun) |
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| | #5 | |
| Senior Member | Quote:
Let the Brazilians have Santos-Dumont and his claims nothing wrong with it, the rest of us know the facts. | |
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| | #6 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,765
| Hi Merlin, >Henning, you won't hear any arguments from me. It was readily apparent that the Wright Flier could do a lot more than Santos-Dumont's aircraft could. Even the French who were very much down on the Wright brothers were in shock when they finally did see the Wrights flying figure 8's, banking turns and such like that which no other aircraft could do. Roger that For the sake of completeness, I'd like to point out that Santos-Dumont was a highly accomplished aviation pioneer nevertheless, both with lighter-than-air and with heavier-than-air vehicles. His "Demoiselle" was an amazing high-performance aircraft in its time, and he generously released the plans to the general public for everyone to copy the design, so he did not only have the technical genius and the personal courage to build and fly his own aircraft, but also the altruistic spirit to share it in an effort to help the development of aviation. Regards, Henning (HoHun) |
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| | #7 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Indiana
Posts: 421
| Pioneer flight has always fascinated me. I remember well reading lengthy articles about who was the "first". There's no doubt that on a technical basis, the laurels for the first heavier-then-air controlled flight was made by the Wright Brothers. The problems with crediting the Wrights at the time with recognition of such was the fact they kept it secret for so long, mostly for patent reasons. They were hoping for a buyer, primarily the US military. They had made the announcement, and shown their pictures, but not everyone was convinced, and who could blame them? There had been many unsuccessful attempts before, with people claiming to have flown, but never being able to prove it (or were unwilling to prove it). They saw the Wrights as two more individuals making claims but unwilling to demonstrate it as soon as they made the announcement. Thus, when Santos Dumont made his semi-controlled flight in 14-bis in Paris of 1906, he was considered the "first" as he had done it in full view of many spectators. His fans also note it was done without the use of a guide rail, catapult, or strong headwind, all of which they argue the Wright Flyer needed, therefore not achieving "true flight". Before, there have been a few who actually made "hops" in heavier-than-air machine, all of which were uncontrolled. In France, the title of "First" is Clement Ader, who made a short hop in his bat-like contraptions "Eole" and "Avion". On a personal note, I have no problem giving the Wright Brothers credit for the first controlled flight. I do think their decision to keep it a secret was a little foolish on their part. I think their genius was in the fact that they knew a heavier-than-air machine needed controlling surfaces. Their many tests with gliders confirmed this. I also think that by being bicycle men, this helped them understand the necessity of control. The other thing they should be given much credit for, was their use of homemade windtunnels to test their control theories. Using these methods, they demonstrated a truely scientific approach on their behalf, rather than the trial and error approach others were doing. What I cannot give them credit for, is their application of the early airfoil, the designs of which were basically taken from other people's research. Lets not forget, that the Wrights had a very important and well connected friend - Octave Chanute. Chanute, who had experimented with gliders of his own, was able to attend meetings between members of the early aeronautical societies which had formed in Paris. Chanute lost no time in sending the Wright Brothers copies of all the information he came across. With this wealth of information from some many other people's research, I'm hardly surprised they were able to fine tune the airfoil. Funny enough in 2003, for the 100th anniversary of the Wright's first flight, the scene was recreated in North Carolina at Kitty Hawk with thousands of people in attendance, including President Bush. The attempts were unsucessful as it was determined that the catapult was not adjusted for maximum pull, and the headwind was weak. What was not noted by any the commentaries here (but all over TV news in France), was that around the same time, French engineering students also had their marking of the anniversary with their own replica Wright flyer, launched it from a catapult with a weight that was slightly heavier than the original one, and into a full headwind. By God it flew!
__________________ You'll live. Only the best get killed. - Charles de Gaulle England is a former colony gone horribly wrong. - Georges Clemenceau Last edited by Arsenal VG-33; 02-18-2008 at 08:06 PM. |
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| | #8 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Indiana
Posts: 421
| Quote:
__________________ You'll live. Only the best get killed. - Charles de Gaulle England is a former colony gone horribly wrong. - Georges Clemenceau | |
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| | #9 |
| The Pop-Tart Whisperer ![]() Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: South Jersey, United States
Posts: 11,836
| Just watched a docu on Dumont and he tried forever to get the control problem handled. His plane was impressive until the Wright's brought over their machine and knocked everyone's socks off. The docu recreated Dumont's machine and flew it.
__________________ ![]() "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's English, thank a soldier!" |
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| | #10 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Escondido,Ca
Posts: 2,218
| Quote:
__________________ ![]() Dont shoot him...... It will just make him angry. | |
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| | #11 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,851
| There were a few people who claimed to have built powered heavier than air craft (including the New Zealander Richard Pearse) even before the Wright's. The problem was always too few reliable witnesses - even the Wright's had a battle getting recognition for the accomplishment. Not knocking their achievement, but a fairer comment might be that they were the first 'recognized' builders of a powered aircraft. Interesting that the Wright's first flight could have taken place inside a C-5 Galaxy! |
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| | #12 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 626
| Probably lighter to build a skid as wheels need brakes and suspension and stuff. Weight would be the killer...not sure why taking off from a skid is a big deal. Maybe the anti-gravity unit wasn't working that day. |
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| | #13 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,082
| Quote:
![]() ![]() I guess one could argue that the Flyer did take off on wheels, two adapted bicycle wheel hubs, that made up the support trolley. Why not traditional wheels? Who knows. Some say to reduce weight, as power was a problem and another source says... .."but for some unknown reason the Wright brothers did not fit wheels to their aircraft until seven years later, in August 1910". To manoeuvre the aircraft on the ground after flights, they used two small wheeled trolleys placed under each wing. (Trivial note. The US Army purchased a "Flyer" at a price of $25,000 for the Signal Corps in 1908. The contract called for a minimum speed of 40 mph. The Wrights delivered a "Flyer" 2.5mph faster than this and were therefore paid a bonus of $5,000.) Last edited by Graeme; 02-19-2008 at 04:31 AM. Reason: 1910 | |
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| | #14 | |
| The Pop-Tart Whisperer ![]() Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: South Jersey, United States
Posts: 11,836
| Quote:
__________________ ![]() "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's English, thank a soldier!" | |
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| | #15 | |
| Senior Member | Quote:
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