Which WWIIcountry is in the frontier of the aerospace?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Now that I can believe.

[plan_D]

Is it just me, or does anyone else want to kick someone in the head right now?

[Chiron]

How about Japan?

How's Japanese R&D during WWII?

Did Japan make better planes than, say, Soviet?

Hmm, that's very hard to say.

Japan had some excellent engineering, but they lacked materials and alloy technology and the machine tools technology necessary to build state-of-the-art aircraft, expecially near the end of the war. The Soviets also had some excellent engineers, and near the end of the war they recieved both machine tools and high-quality alloys from the USA via lend-lease.

Personally, I think the Ki-84 was as good as anything the Soviets produced during the war, though the La-7 would be competative for sure. On the otherhand, the Tu-2 was certainly superior to any bomber the Japanese produced. So overall, technology wise, I'd say they were pretty even. Production wise, the Soviets had them beat many times over.

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[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Japnese jumped onto the the bomber scene a bit late in my opinion.

I will agree with RG that they had excellent engineering but lacked the recources.

As for the Soviets, I think they were just concentrating on building what they needed to survive and stop the Germans. The fact that Stalin had his fingers all over the Soviet R&D did not help, just as it did not help the Germans that Hilter was too involved.

[Chiron]

"I will agree with RG that they had excellent engineering but lacked the recources. "

By the way, Germany was also lack of natural resources, but where they got their oil and mental from? I meant that Japan and Germany are overpopulated and almost no sustainable resources. But, why Germany was able to sustain much longer than Japanese did? and why Germany was much dangerous than Japan in WWII?

Originally Posted by Chiron

"I will agree with RG that they had excellent engineering but lacked the recources. "

By the way, Germany was also lack of natural resources, but where they got their oil and mental from? I meant that Japan and Germany are overpopulated and almost no sustainable resources. But, why Germany was able to sustain much longer than Japanese did? and why Germany was much dangerous than Japan in WWII?

Well, first off Japan had much less land for about the same population and Germany/Austria. Germany/Austria/Poland/Rumania/Hungary/etc... is much richer in metals and other resources (including oil) than Japan. Germany/Austria proper also had relatively large supplies of coal which allowed them to produce "synthetic" fuel, Japan did not. And Germany was also more widely industrialized than Japan. Japan had to import almost all resources via ship, which were extremely vulnerable to US planes and submarines. Germany was able to use rail and truck transport, which until the very end of the war was still somewhat functional. Rail and truck transport can shutdown and hide during the day, ships en-route cannot.

Germany actually did a very poor job of managing its war economy. Japan did much better, but it had less to work with. Had Germany properly mobilized its economy for war before mid-1944 they might actually have won. However, the German people were bought off with the economic benefits provided by the Nazi's, and Hitler was unwilling to risk loosing their support by withdrawing this until it was far far too late.

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[mosquitoman]

Like the Italians, the Japanese had fine planes but rubbish engines to power them.

[plan_D]

Germany got it's Iron Ore from Sweden via rail (Royal Navy blockaded North Sea) and got it's Oil from Romania (Ploesti Oil Fields). For a simple answer.

[Chiron]

Why Japan failed to industrialize in pre-WWII in comparison with Germany?

Natural resources may played a role, but I dont think its a critical one. We know that Japan is the second most powerful economy after US now. And it is also one of the most technological advanced nation on earth; has more R&D than Germany and any European nation.

The problem that I dont understand is that why Japan was weak in terms of industrial capacity, but became such powerful economy in post-WWII era. I recalled my Political Science class last year that during 1980s and early 1990s, Japanese economy was so powerful that 10 of the world largest banks were Japaense and the real estate of Imperal Palace was equivalent to the real estate of whole California.

But, why Japan wasnt in such state prior and during WWII? It had already industrialized for over fifty years now afer Meiji revolution in late 19th century.

[plan_D]

It lacked strategic resources, that makes a lot of difference in industrialisation. The world wasn't as close net as it is these days, Japan isn't self-sufficient. It relies heavily on raw materials from other nations. Those nations it relies on today, weren't it's allies back then.

The U.S halted many important exports to Japan after it's invasion of China, for example.

And I may be wrong on this but I thought Japan was the strongest economy on the planet, not the U.S.

[Chiron]

"And I may be wrong on this but I thought Japan was the strongest economy on the planet, not the U.S."

During the Cold War, most of Economist experts forcasted that Japan would overtake US by early '90s. But, like the fall of Soviet Union, the Japanese economy was bubble burst in early 1990s.

Japanese ecnomoy was so powerful then that US government afraid that their corporations might absorbed by Japanese, such as Sony bought CBS etc. And of course, the famous battle and competition of supercomputer and semiconductor between Japanese and US researchers in 80s. I think it was like every two years, Japanese introduced new supercomputer. Japanese miracle impacted not only on American industries, but also on American perception of future; many sci-fic movies contained scenes of futuristic style of citeis that based on Tokyo, Blade Runner, or domination of Japanese corporations in Alien 3.

Of course, now, Detroit is losing battle against mighty Japanese auto makers, Toyota, Honda. I recalled that when asked which company BMW is most respecting in engineering, BMW replies: Honda (just looked at their engines technology and their unsurpassed robotic advancements).

But, I still dont understand why Japanese engineering was so poor prior and during WWII? I heard somone compare Japan with Italy in R&D, which is kind of exaggerating. Afterall Japan built the most powerful fleet in the beginning of war, whereas Italy had none of that.

Natural resources maybe a key, but Japan occupied Manchuria and other rich provinces of China in the beginning of war.

In Political Science, both Germany and Japan are often comparing with each other as they have very similar path of economic and political developments prior and post WWII.

Germany was also a late comer in terms of industrialization and political modernization. Yet, with similar size of population in Japan, Germany had much advanced and scientific research as well as in industrial output.

Originally Posted by Chiron

Why Japan failed to industrialize in pre-WWII in comparison with Germany?

Natural resources may played a role, but I dont think its a critical one. We know that Japan is the second most powerful economy after US now. And it is also one of the most technological advanced nation on earth; has more R&D than Germany and any European nation.

The problem that I dont understand is that why Japan was weak in terms of industrial capacity, but became such powerful economy in post-WWII era. I recalled my Political Science class last year that during 1980s and early 1990s, Japanese economy was so powerful that 10 of the world largest banks were Japaense and the real estate of Imperal Palace was equivalent to the real estate of whole California.

But, why Japan wasnt in such state prior and during WWII? It had already industrialized for over fifty years now afer Meiji revolution in late 19th century.

Actually, it was the "Meiji Restoration", much more a coup than a "revolution". It resulted in the military achieving political dominance using the Emperor as (partly willing) puppet.

The issue comes down to one simple difference between pre-WWII Gemany vs. Japan - Education. Most of the Japanese people were uneducated by western standards. This was especially true under the Tokagawa Shoganate (which was highly isolationist), but was relaxed a little after the Meiji Restoration (1889 IIRC) and a little more after the Military came to fuller dominance around 1916, But still the Japanese were mostly farmers and general laborers. What education most Japanese did recieve had to do mostly with "punctuality", "obedience", and "repetition". Thinking processes were not a part of general education, and even reading skills were taught at only the most rudimentrary levels. Only the social elite were given any form of higher education, everyone else was expected to perform rote tasks either in the field, the factory, or the office. So the pool of talant to enact industrialization was somewhat limited.

Also, capital for industrialization was somewhat limited, since most of it had to be initially purchased from Western powers, and then duplicated. This often meant Japan's industrial technology was a full generation behind the Western powers as they were spending a decade to copy what was not even usually state-of-the art technology in the first place.

Finally, you have to consider the starting point. Japan had almost no "modern" industry at the time of the Meiji Restoration. Eurpean nations were already heavily industrialized for over 100 years, and the USA had become so during the Civil war. Japanese heavy industry growth was probably about as fast as their educated worker base and financial resources could accomodate in the period from 1900-1940. Still, it was far less than that of the USA, but probably approached that of most European nations by WWII.

Finally, Germany was bigger than Japan. The German population in 1939 was about 80.5 millon, where Japan had a population of only about 50 million. And remember, while Germany was not huge, Japan is only about the size of California.

As for Japan's rise after WWII - that can be summed up in three words "The Marshall Plan". Japan did not have to industrialize itself, we did it for them! And we even went so far as to build the best we could for them - for example both Germany and Japan got O2 injection smelters after WWII. This resulted in the "quality" of German and Japanese steel in car bodys being "superior" to that of US cars in the 60's and especially the 70's and 80's. About 65% of US smelters were of the old coal and coke type, and thus higher quality steel was more expensive in the USA than in the former Axis nations. As a result, American made cars were more subject to rust than German/Japanese cars.

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[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Chiron

"I will agree with RG that they had excellent engineering but lacked the recources. "

By the way, Germany was also lack of natural resources, but where they got their oil and mental from? I meant that Japan and Germany are overpopulated and almost no sustainable resources. But, why Germany was able to sustain much longer than Japanese did? and why Germany was much dangerous than Japan in WWII?

You have to take into account that Germany took over countries that had natural recourses. Japan mostly took over Islands that did not have much.

Chiron,

Japan was not "similar" in population to German, it had only 3/5ths as many people. That is a huge difference.

Also, the number of Japanese with any kind of real education in Japan was tiny by comparison to Germany. Only about the top 5% of Japanese received more than what today would be considered a 5th grade education. A smaller number of well educated people means a smaller capacity for R&D.

And finally, Japan did not have the "best" navy in the world at the start of WWII. They managed to sink most of the US Battleships at Perl Harbor but if you look at the match-up before PH Japan was still inferior.

According to Paul Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers", in 1937 the war-making potential of the 7 major players in WWII was:



As you can see Japan's economy was only about a quarter as powerful as Germany's. And in 1937, the German economy was hot but the Japanese economy was super-heated from their war with China, so the German advantage is a little understated.

Japan was really a little power that got a big head and acted foolishly. This seems to be a common malady when a peoples decide they are innately superior to other peoples.

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