Your armament? - Aircraft of World War II

schwarzpanzer · 10-05-2005, 08:58 AM

What armament would you choose for your WW2 plane?

I think a Mk103 through the propellor hub and 4 x .50's in the wings (both)wouldn't be unrealistic for, say a Ta152?

Parmigiano · 10-05-2005, 11:02 AM

Hmmm.. the Mk103 was very heavy and 'slow firing', maybe the Mk108 was a better compromise.

I think an interesting discussion would be to analyze the different approach in fighters armament: Germans (and Russians) favoured the concentration of weapons in the nose (the inner MG151 of the Fw190 are so close that can be considered fuselage mounted), while Americans and British spreaded the armament in the wings.

Both solutions have of course pro and cons, as a start for the 'nose solution' they could be (all other conditions being equal):

Pro
- No horizontal harmonization issues
- Wings are lighter : better roll? I suppose that a heavier wing has a bigger inertia
- Concentrated firepower
- less vulnerability to enemy fire (smaller area and ammo more protected than a wing mounted solution)

Con
- slower rate of fire, due to synchronization with propeller arc
- more complicated installation
- less probability to hit the target with a 'nearly miss'
- small changes in CG when the ammo are used up

Jabberwocky · 10-05-2005, 11:27 AM

For fighter to fighter combat on a real WW2 airplane, nothing beats the combination of 4 20mm MG 151s in the wings and 2 13.2 mm MG 131 in the cowling of a Fw190A-6 or later.

Close runner up would be the Tempest with the Mk V Hispanos with increased rate of fire and 200 rpg.

The Beaufighter and Mosquito also deserve special mention. The fighter bomber versions of the Mossie mounted 4 Hispanos with 300 rpg and 4 .303s with 3000 rpg! The Australian versions of the Beaufighter had 4 M2 Brownings with 500 rpg and 4 Hispanos with 250 rpg. British versions had 4 Hispanos and 6 Browning .303s!

Technically speaking, I prefer the British/Soviet approach of high velocity, flat trajectory cannons with a high AP and moderate HE value. Easier to shoot at small targets than with lighter shells, much better terminal and AP effects than a HMG and similar MV and ROF to a HMG.

So, my ultimate single seater fighter armament would probably be a FW-190A equipped with 4 Hispano Mk V in the wings and a Soviet UBS Heavy Machine gun in the cowling.

For bomber interception nothing can really better the He-219 'Uhu'. The A-R/7-1 had 2 Mk 108s in the wing roots, plus two more and 2 Mg 151/20s in the gun tray. It also carried 2 more MK 108s in a Schrage Musik installation. Total of 6 Mk 108s and two Mg 151/20s!

Fighter armament

1st Hispano Mk V 20mm
2nd Berezin B-20 20mm
3rd UBS 12.7mm

Bomber armament

1st Mk 108 20mm
2nd MG 151/20 (especially with MG shells)
3rd Hispano Mk V 20mm

Erich · 10-05-2005, 11:31 AM

There never was a He 219A-7 variant used in combat. I./NJG 1 reduced the armament to just 2cm weapons except for the Schräg waffen. two 2cm's in the wingroots and usually 4 2cm in the belley tray. the 2cm actually was a prefferred arms in the German nf force over the forward 3cm which caused too much debris to fly off and then having to fly through it.............

I./NJG 1 Uhu's were either the A-0 or A-2's; no A-5 variants or A-6 mossie chasers were ever given to the unit, nor any A-7's

trackend · 10-05-2005, 11:43 AM

Eight 13mm 131's with a total of 7440 rpm

Erich · 10-05-2005, 12:49 PM

8 MG 151/20's 2cm's forward armament as fitted to some ZG 26 Me 410B's in early 1944 ~ aka "Watering Can"

MacArther · 10-05-2005, 12:54 PM

Two .50s, two 40mms and 2 .30 caliburs to aim the 40mms and act as back up weapons.

cheddar cheese · 10-05-2005, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trackend

Eight 13mm 131's with a total of 7440 rpm

Id have 2xMG-151/20's in the wing roots, 4x .50's in the outer wings, and a 37mm firing through the Prop hub...

syscom3 · 10-05-2005, 01:13 PM

For ground attack, id like to have seen the B25's with twelve .50's for the front and a pair of Hispano's in the tail (to finish up the job).

Lunatic · 10-05-2005, 01:45 PM

I'd go for 10 x B20 cannon mounted on a P-47M/N, with 300 rpg. They'd fit and even save a little weight over 8 x .50's. Range would still be adequate though only about 3/4ths that of the .50's, but with an RoF of 8000 rpm and initial velocity in the 850 m/s range this would be awsome fire power.

Or 8 x B20's on a P-51, P-38, or Corsair.

=S=

Lunatic

cheddar cheese · 10-05-2005, 01:49 PM

That would be pretty awesome...Especially on a -38...

Gnomey · 10-05-2005, 01:56 PM

Fighter

2 x Hispano MKV in wings
2 x MG151/20 in wings
1 x 37mm & 2 MG131 or 2 x MG151/20 and 2 MG131 in nose

Night Fighter

2 x MK108 in rear fuselage firing upwards (can't remember the name)
2 x Hispano MKV in wings
8 x MG151/20 in nose (like the ME410 "Watering Can" mentioned by Erich earlier)

Ground attack

4 x MK108 in nose
6 x 50" in nose
12 x 60lb Rockets
Bombs/Napalm

the lancaster kicks ass · 10-05-2005, 02:28 PM

Quote:

2 x MK108 in rear fuselage firing upwards (can't remember the name)

i know what it's called but i'll be buggered if i can spell it........

Erich · 10-05-2005, 02:58 PM

Schräge Muzik or Schrägwaffen for short .............

it was general acceptance to remove the heavier Mk 108 3cm from this installation except on the He 219 A-0 and A-2's as the debris from the 3cm's was so severe that the Uhu's were damaged by it while underneath the RAF heavies. 2cm with Glimmspur ammo was used giving just a very faint tracer where the crew could follow it to it's destination in the Bf 110G-4 and Ju 88 variants, and thus not quite having the terrible "blowing out effect" from the heavier 3cm's. the 3cm's also had a very large flash when firing

Gnomey · 10-05-2005, 03:00 PM

Thats the one Erich. Thanks.

10-05-2005, 08:58 AM	#1
schwarzpanzer Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 580	Your armament? What armament would you choose for your WW2 plane? I think a Mk103 through the propellor hub and 4 x .50's in the wings (both)wouldn't be unrealistic for, say a Ta152? __________________ Like WW2 tanks? Then please visit the Panzer Front: http://p208.ezboard.com/bthepanzerfront

10-05-2005, 11:02 AM	#2
Parmigiano Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy Posts: 682	Hmmm.. the Mk103 was very heavy and 'slow firing', maybe the Mk108 was a better compromise. I think an interesting discussion would be to analyze the different approach in fighters armament: Germans (and Russians) favoured the concentration of weapons in the nose (the inner MG151 of the Fw190 are so close that can be considered fuselage mounted), while Americans and British spreaded the armament in the wings. Both solutions have of course pro and cons, as a start for the 'nose solution' they could be (all other conditions being equal): Pro - No horizontal harmonization issues - Wings are lighter : better roll? I suppose that a heavier wing has a bigger inertia - Concentrated firepower - less vulnerability to enemy fire (smaller area and ammo more protected than a wing mounted solution) Con - slower rate of fire, due to synchronization with propeller arc - more complicated installation - less probability to hit the target with a 'nearly miss' - small changes in CG when the ammo are used up __________________ "God is dead" - Friedrich Nietzsche, 1882 "Nietzsche too" - God, Aug 25, 1900 He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams

10-05-2005, 11:31 AM	#4
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	There never was a He 219A-7 variant used in combat. I./NJG 1 reduced the armament to just 2cm weapons except for the Schräg waffen. two 2cm's in the wingroots and usually 4 2cm in the belley tray. the 2cm actually was a prefferred arms in the German nf force over the forward 3cm which caused too much debris to fly off and then having to fly through it............. I./NJG 1 Uhu's were either the A-0 or A-2's; no A-5 variants or A-6 mossie chasers were ever given to the unit, nor any A-7's __________________ Rip it up !

10-05-2005, 12:49 PM	#6
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	8 MG 151/20's 2cm's forward armament as fitted to some ZG 26 Me 410B's in early 1944 ~ aka "Watering Can" __________________ Rip it up !

10-05-2005, 12:54 PM	#7
MacArther Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 876	Two .50s, two 40mms and 2 .30 caliburs to aim the 40mms and act as back up weapons. __________________ http://www.fictionpress.com/u/478009/ Hillary 2012: The world has to end sometime!

10-05-2005, 11:27 AM	#3
Jabberwocky Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Japan Posts: 494	For fighter to fighter combat on a real WW2 airplane, nothing beats the combination of 4 20mm MG 151s in the wings and 2 13.2 mm MG 131 in the cowling of a Fw190A-6 or later. Close runner up would be the Tempest with the Mk V Hispanos with increased rate of fire and 200 rpg. The Beaufighter and Mosquito also deserve special mention. The fighter bomber versions of the Mossie mounted 4 Hispanos with 300 rpg and 4 .303s with 3000 rpg! The Australian versions of the Beaufighter had 4 M2 Brownings with 500 rpg and 4 Hispanos with 250 rpg. British versions had 4 Hispanos and 6 Browning .303s! Technically speaking, I prefer the British/Soviet approach of high velocity, flat trajectory cannons with a high AP and moderate HE value. Easier to shoot at small targets than with lighter shells, much better terminal and AP effects than a HMG and similar MV and ROF to a HMG. So, my ultimate single seater fighter armament would probably be a FW-190A equipped with 4 Hispano Mk V in the wings and a Soviet UBS Heavy Machine gun in the cowling. For bomber interception nothing can really better the He-219 'Uhu'. The A-R/7-1 had 2 Mk 108s in the wing roots, plus two more and 2 Mg 151/20s in the gun tray. It also carried 2 more MK 108s in a Schrage Musik installation. Total of 6 Mk 108s and two Mg 151/20s! Fighter armament 1st Hispano Mk V 20mm 2nd Berezin B-20 20mm 3rd UBS 12.7mm Bomber armament 1st Mk 108 20mm 2nd MG 151/20 (especially with MG shells) 3rd Hispano Mk V 20mm

10-05-2005, 11:43 AM	#5
trackend Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Canvey Island, Essex Posts: 4,029	Eight 13mm 131's with a total of 7440 rpm

10-05-2005, 01:13 PM	#9
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,277	For ground attack, id like to have seen the B25's with twelve .50's for the front and a pair of Hispano's in the tail (to finish up the job). __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

10-05-2005, 01:45 PM	#10
Lunatic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 191	I'd go for 10 x B20 cannon mounted on a P-47M/N, with 300 rpg. They'd fit and even save a little weight over 8 x .50's. Range would still be adequate though only about 3/4ths that of the .50's, but with an RoF of 8000 rpm and initial velocity in the 850 m/s range this would be awsome fire power. Or 8 x B20's on a P-51, P-38, or Corsair. =S= Lunatic

10-05-2005, 01:49 PM	#11
cheddar cheese Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: WSM, England Posts: 20,387	That would be pretty awesome...Especially on a -38...

10-05-2005, 01:56 PM	#12
Gnomey "World Traveller" Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Royal Deeside/St Andrews, Scotland, UK Posts: 15,217	Fighter 2 x Hispano MKV in wings 2 x MG151/20 in wings 1 x 37mm & 2 MG131 or 2 x MG151/20 and 2 MG131 in nose Night Fighter 2 x MK108 in rear fuselage firing upwards (can't remember the name) 2 x Hispano MKV in wings 8 x MG151/20 in nose (like the ME410 "Watering Can" mentioned by Erich earlier) Ground attack 4 x MK108 in nose 6 x 50" in nose 12 x 60lb Rockets Bombs/Napalm __________________ "Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal, it is the Courage to Continue that Counts" Sir Winston Churchill "To him the People of the World Largely owe the Freedom and Liberties they Enjoy Today" Enscription on Hugh Dowding's (AOC Fighter Command 1936-40) statue in London WW2 Talk: A WW2 Discussion Forum My Photo Collections on Flickr

10-05-2005, 02:58 PM	#14
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	Schräge Muzik or Schrägwaffen for short ............. it was general acceptance to remove the heavier Mk 108 3cm from this installation except on the He 219 A-0 and A-2's as the debris from the 3cm's was so severe that the Uhu's were damaged by it while underneath the RAF heavies. 2cm with Glimmspur ammo was used giving just a very faint tracer where the crew could follow it to it's destination in the Bf 110G-4 and Ju 88 variants, and thus not quite having the terrible "blowing out effect" from the heavier 3cm's. the 3cm's also had a very large flash when firing __________________ Rip it up !

10-05-2005, 03:00 PM	#15
Gnomey "World Traveller" Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Royal Deeside/St Andrews, Scotland, UK Posts: 15,217	Thats the one Erich. Thanks. __________________ "Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal, it is the Courage to Continue that Counts" Sir Winston Churchill "To him the People of the World Largely owe the Freedom and Liberties they Enjoy Today" Enscription on Hugh Dowding's (AOC Fighter Command 1936-40) statue in London WW2 Talk: A WW2 Discussion Forum My Photo Collections on Flickr

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