Which country designed the best engines for WWII?

[Juha]

KrazyKraut
If you read my message carefully, I claimed that "Spit VII – IX were faster at least high up than 109G-2, -4 and -6 at least from late 42 to very late 43 when most of the time 1,3 ata was max permitted for DB 605A." At that time the max speed for G-2 was 650 km/h, look for Kurfürst site, or according to FAF tests 636 km/h (MT-215, which had fixed tailwheel but that wasn't uncommon, at least if one judge from pictures of LW early Gs, some had fixed aND some retracted tailwheels). Not that the speed difference was significant, Spit Mks VII-IX were capable say 656 - 670 km/h depending on the Merlin used. And I only want to question the Sorenlike sweeping statement that "the German fighters, all were faster than the Spitfire". And same time being fair and not comparing 109E with FR. XIV.

Kurfürst
yes, a bit far from aero engines, but again I wanted to question Soren's claim that German fighters were "easily capable of dealing with Spitfire in combat." And with that claim the combat over Malta in Oct 42 MHO makes sense. And when the Allied got upper hand they had not spent very long time to bomb Panterrelia (spelling?) or Sicily before they were ripe for surrender or for invasion.

IIRC first IXs went to Med in early 43. t least they participated in unis campaign but in small numbers.

Yes, Brits were stretching their production capacity to limits. But because at low level LF. Mk V could look after themselves it was enough to have enough late Spits for top cover. And after all in late 44 there were not even enough aerial targets to Mk VIIIs and IXs and also those were used in increasing numbers as fighter bombers. But probably it would be better to discuss air war on some other thread.

Juha

[parsifal]

Perhaps a matter was a bit more complex than who had the better aero engines...

Agreed


As to the air combat over Malta, as far as I know, it was pretty one sided. The Luftwaffe bombed the island and the ships around it continously. Spitfires were poured to Malta, with herculean efforts. Continously. I wonder why. :


Its a very big stretch to assert, or even suggest that the Spitfires on Malta were outmanouvred or outclassed. Quite the contrary. In the period March to october 1942, the Malta Defenders shot down over 600 LW attackers, whilst losing less than 300 of their own, the majority of these on the ground, with a lesser number also lost to ambushes as the Spitfires arrived at malta from their fery flights. This 600 is exclusively German, the italian losses are not included in this total

For the record this is the thumbnail history of operations in the critical period March-August 1942.

1-Mar -
19 Apr
The first Spitfires Mk.VC were conveyed by carrier to Malta in several waves during the month of March 1942, and No. 126, 185 and 249 Squadrons converted to them right away (but they conserved however their Hurricanes Mk.IIB). The tempo of combat increases from 21 March (beginning of the Operation HERKULES) to mid-April. No. 89 night fighter Squadron on Beaufighter Mk.IF arrived in the middle of April and performed great services.

20 Apr -
15 May
Arrival of the reinforcements. No. 601 and 603 Squadrons took off the 20 April from the USS Wasp, delivering a precious load of 46 Spitfires. The combats reached at this moment their height over Malta, with high losses of Spitfires as on ground than in flight, but the supply of 59 new Spitfires the 9 May permitted to the British to reconstitute their strengths. The 15 May was the decisive day of the campaign, where the RAF caused the Axis to stop its bombardments which became too expensive in crews and in material.

16 May
30 Jun
Calm period. The Axis sent sporadic fighter-bombers raids over Malta. On its side, the RAF is reinforced with three new deliveries of Spitfires, permitting them to reequip its five Squadrons. No. 601Squadron left Malta 23 June for Egypt.

1-Jul -
12 Aug
The bombardments over Malta started again 1 July, but without the intensity of April. The RAF knew how to properly "receive" its "guests". From the 13 July, the tempo of raids decreased but continued. At the beginning of August, 603 Squadron was disbanded to reconstitute 229 Squadron; the new 1435 Squadron was created this month. Fighter-bomber attacks began again. The RAF lack of fuel was revealed during this period.

13 Aug -
10 Oct
From the 13 August, the Spitfires, supported by Beaufighters, escorted the arrival of the Pedestal convoy. The tanker Ohio delivered precious aviation fuel so indipensable to the Malta defenders on 15 Aug. This supply, combined with an offensive strategy, permitted the RAF to make raids over Axis airfields in Sicily starting on 18-Aug, which reached their highest point the 27 August. Moreover, the Swordfish pilots exchanged their old biplanes for Sea Hurricane Mk.IIA equipped with 250 lb bombs.

September and October are calm months for the Spitfires, but busy for the Beauforts.

11-Oct -
20 Oct
The Axis again sent bombers over Malta, but this time without great conviction. After 20 October, the raids weakened. The battle was finished; the convoys could arrive without incident to destination. Malta would become a springboard for the conquest of Italy, and was bothered from then on only by few night bombardments.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by parsifal

Its a very big stretch to assert, or even suggest that the Spitfires on Malta were outmanouvred or outclassed. Quite the contrary. In the period March to october 1942, the Malta Defenders shot down over 600 LW attackers, whilst losing less than 300 of their own, the majority of these on the ground, with a lesser number also lost to ambushes as the Spitfires arrived at malta from their fery flights. This 600 is exclusively German, the italian losses are not included in this total

First, thank you for your summary.

As the 600 LW planes shot down, I very much doubt the figures. I presume they are not from the German loss records, rather claims made by the RAF..?

Originally Posted by parsifal

The 15 May was the decisive day of the campaign, where the RAF caused the Axis to stop its bombardments which became too expensive in crews and in material.

I have doubts about this too - a more probably reason was that the German bombers went back to the Eastern Front, to assist in the upcoming big German ground offensive in the summer of 1942 - as it was almost custumary during the war, the air units shuttled between the Eastern and Mediterranean fronts, and operated where the weather permitted.

Anyway, the topic merits a thread on its own.

[Glider]

If it helps in the period 19 December 41 to 7 November 41, German losses attributed to fighters and AA fire were 249 aircraft. These figures are from German records.
In the same period The italian losses seem to have been about two thirds of the German losses (they are not collated in a similar manner and I don't have the time to go through a 650 page book).

British losses in the air for the period 1st Jan 41 to 7 November were 45 Hurricanes and 148 Spitfires.

The above figures from Malta the Spitfire Years.

Re the comment about the number of Spit V's in service in Jan 1944 I make it about 50/50 with a large number in the process of conversion during the first quarter of 1944. By March 44 its a lot more.
Information gleaned from squadrons of the RAF.

[Juha]

Thanks Gilder for Malta figures and Jan 44 figure
on 1 Jun 44, appr. 20% of ADGB and 2nd TAF spits were Mk Vs rest were VIIs, IXs plus a small number of XIVs.

And what I have read on Normandy battles, from both sides, there were enough RAF air superiority fighters but cleary not enough LW fighters, so British could produce enough 60 series Merlins for at least ETO needs. I'm not studied MTO in 44 so much but my guess is that situation was by then same also there. And by that time they could sent some Mk VIIIs also to Far East.

Juha

[starling]

i reckon england did.the merlin powered the spit,lanc and mossie.yours,starling.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Juha

Thanks Gilder for Malta figures and Jan 44 figure
on 1 Jun 44, appr. 20% of ADGB and 2nd TAF spits were Mk Vs rest were VIIs, IXs plus a small number of XIVs.

And what I have read on Normandy battles, from both sides, there were enough RAF air superiority fighters but cleary not enough LW fighters, so British could produce enough 60 series Merlins for at least ETO needs. I'm not studied MTO in 44 so much but my guess is that situation was by then same also there. And by that time they could sent some Mk VIIIs also to Far East.

Juha

That fits in pretty well with what I have.

Re the statement that the Germans had more or less re equipped with later versions of the 109 before the British that isn't suprising as the vast majority of German fighter production went into replacing losses. Allied production was to a much greater degree going into expansion.

German fighter strength
4th May 1940 1369 single engined fighters
End June 1944 1375 single engined fighters

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

If it helps in the period 19 December 41 to 7 November 41, German losses attributed to fighters and AA fire were 249 aircraft. These figures are from German records.
In the same period The italian losses seem to have been about two thirds of the German losses (they are not collated in a similar manner and I don't have the time to go through a 650 page book).

British losses in the air for the period 1st Jan 41 to 7 November were 45 Hurricanes and 148 Spitfires.

The above figures from Malta the Spitfire Years.

Thanks, these figures appear to be a lot more reasonable. I presume its a typo and the figures are for between 19 December 1941 to 7 November 1942..?

Apart from Spitfires and Hurricanes, do you know what other British losses occured in the area?

Re the comment about the number of Spit V's in service in Jan 1944 I make it about 50/50 with a large number in the process of conversion during the first quarter of 1944. By March 44 its a lot more.
Information gleaned from squadrons of the RAF.

See attachment.

Juha

I'm not studied MTO in 44 so much but my guess is that situation was by then same also there. And by that time they could sent some Mk VIIIs also to Far East.

Nope - the MTO had far less of priority for new equipment than the ETO, the Mk Vs - clearly obsolate by 1943 - still saw much use there, while the new types were scarce.

Re the statement that the Germans had more or less re equipped with later versions of the 109 before the British that isn't suprising as the vast majority of German fighter production went into replacing losses. Allied production was to a much greater degree going into expansion.


German fighter strength
4th May 1940 1369 single engined fighters
End June 1944 1375 single engined fighters

I don`t think its true, after all, the size of the LW considerably increased between 1940 and 1944; the RAF`s fighter force remained very much the same as well in 1944 as it was in 1940; and your comparison ignores that while in 1940 single engined fighter types only went to single engined fighter units, by 1944 Bf 109s and FW 190As were found in large numbers in reconnaissance, ground-attack and of course, SE fighter units.

HoHun has made an extremely informative graph on the subject, I will re-post it below.

As of June 1944 (to remain compatible with your date), Bf 109 and FW 190 strenght with units were as follows:

Daylight fighters
1281 Bf 109s
631 FW 190s
42 Misc (110s, 163, 210, 205)

Night Fighters:
13 Bf 109s
14 FW 190s
+ a lot of others

Ground attack units
508 FW 190s
+ a lot of others

Recce units.
238 Bf 109s
17 FW 190s

So as of June 1944, you are speaking of 1532 Bf 109s and 1170 FW 190s, a total of 2702 SE fighter types with LW units, not counting stratetigic reserves. As of 4th May 1940 you noted 1369 single engined fighters - its hard to say that given the above (and taking into account that when speaking of June 1944, we are speaking of the period in the war the Luftwaffe received its most severe mauling), that almost all of the production went into replacing losses; that is quite simply not true, as the above figures demonstrate.

[parsifal]

Throughout most of 1941, the principal LW SE fighter remained the Me 109e,rather than the f. 1942 saw a re-equipment to the f, but the g was not seen until the latter part of 1942

According to "Campaign For North Africa", the theatre received the following reinforcements throughout 1941-42

This collation does not include withdrawals from the theatre
1941

Jan: 30 Me 110, 15 FW 200C, 30 Ju87B, 36 Ju 88
Feb:
Mar: 32 Me 110, 12 HS 126, 15 Ju 87,
Apr: 46 Me 109e, 12 Me 110, 12 Ju 52, 15 Ju 87, 12 Ju88
May: 42 Me 109e, 18 Me 110, 15 He 111, 15 Ju 52, 24 Ju 87, 15 Ju 88
Jun: 36 Me 109e, 15 He 111, 12 Ju 87, 15 Ju 88
Jul: 40 Me 109e, 15 Me 109f, 6 Me 11015 Ju 52
Aug: 38 Me 109e, 18 me 109f, 15 Me 110, 24 Ju 87, 18 Ju 88
Sep: 42 Me 109e, 32 Me 109f, 28 Me 110, 12 FW 200, 18 He 111,
22 Ju 87, 30 Ju 88
Oct: 56 Me 109e, 42 Me 109f, 28 Me 110, 12 AR 196, 12 He 111,
18 Ju 52, 12 Ju 87, 18 Ju 88
Nov: 50 Me 109e, 30 Me 109f, 6 Me 110, 15 Ju 88, 12 Ju 52, 18 Ju 87,
18 Ju 88
Dec: 18 Me 109e, 38 Me 109f, 15 Me 110, 30 Ju 87, 6 Ju 88

1942

Jan: 12 Me 109e, 48 Me 109f, 15 Me 110, 21 Ju 88, 6 He 111, 12 Ju 52.
15 Ju 87
Feb: 12 Me 109e, 36 Me 109f, 15 Me 110, 30 Ju 88, 18 He 111, 30 Ju 87,
Mar: 9 Me 109e, 45 Me 109f, 15 Me 110, 12 ju 52, 15 Ju 87, 12 Ju 88,
Apr: 36 Me 109f, 40 Me 109g, 12 Me 110, 18 Ju 88, 6 Ar 196, 6 Ju 87
May: 30 Me 109f, 36 Me 109g, 12 Fw 200, 12 He 111, 18 Ju 52, 24 Ju 87,
24 Ju 88
Jun: 15 Me 109f, 48 Me 109g, 12 He 111, 15 Ju 52, 10 Ju 87, 30 Ju 88
Jul: 20 Me 109f, 18 Me 109g, 12 Ju 88, 12 ju 52, 12 Ju 87
Aug 36 Me 109g, 12 Ju 87, 15 Ju 88
Sep: 45 Me 109g, 18 Ju 52, 6 Ju 87D, 12 Ju 88
Oct: 12 Me 109g, 12 He 111, 12 Ju87, 6 Ju 88
Nov: 12 Me 109g, 8 Ju 87
Dec: None

The pont illustrated her is that the LW also tended to put older service types into the theatres (regarding its SE fighters). Also, given what we know were the strengths of the LW at various times, the attrition of the LW was extremely heavy, even in this early to mid part of the war.

[Juha]

Kurfürst
Maybe the most fundamental rule of economics is the scarcity of resurces from which follows that optimal number of something is just enough. More means that the resources would have been in better use in producing something else.

So in mid-1944, IMHO RAF/RAAF/SAAF had more or less enough air superiority fighters bacause the Allies had air superiority in ETO and MTO. More Spit Mk VII or newer would not change the situation much. On the other hand LW clearly didn't have enough fighters in ETO and in MTO, they really would have had use say 500 more 109Gs. Absolute numbers doesn't matter, what matters was did one had enough air superiority fighters or not for one's needs. That doesn't exclude the fact than in 43 and in early 44 there was a need for more Merlin 60 series fighters, for ex at Salerno, if it would have been possible to deploy them (I haven't time to check that) so that they would have been in position to hinder LW's high altitude FX 1400 attacks against warships at Salerno Bay.

And on 60 series Merlins production, there were enough (Pachard-built) of them also for some 14 thousands P-51B-Ks.

Juha

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by parsifal

Throughout most of 1941, the principal LW SE fighter remained the Me 109e,rather than the f. 1942 saw a re-equipment to the f, but the g was not seen until the latter part of 1942.

It is certainly not true for the entire LW - the Emil`s production run in early 1941; by mid-1941, the 109F become the principal fighter of most frontline fighter units; the 109E was only to be seen in the more remote areas, such as JG 5 in Norway, and the various Erganzungseinheiten (=OTUs) for training purposes, and for some time in principially ground attack Jabo units.

Single engine fighters - 28.06.41

Of course here and then, especially in the Med in late 1941, the Emils could still be a significant proportion of the force, but that force was very small to begin with, not to mention the opposition (Hurricanes and Gladiators, at best) didn`t call for much more. But, by the end of 1941, there was hardly any Emils around with first line units:

Single engine fighters - 27.12.41

I am not sure of your numbers though, it shows for example 40 109Gs in April 1942; but the type didn`t actually entered into production until May, and the first ones were received by high-altitude elements on the Western Front in June 1942.

[parsifal]

It is certainly not true for the entire LW - the Emil`s production run in early 1941; by mid-1941, the 109F become the principal fighter of most frontline fighter units; the 109E was only to be seen in the more remote areas, such as JG 5 in Norway, and the various Erganzungseinheiten (=OTUs) for training purposes, and for some time in principially ground attack Jabo units.


I agree, I meant to say that the e was the principal type in the MTO, not as a general comment about the whole of the LW.


Of course here and then, especially in the Med in late 1941, the Emils could still be a significant proportion of the force, but that force was very small to begin with, not to mention the opposition (Hurricanes and Gladiators, at best) didn`t call for much more. But, by the end of 1941, there was hardly any Emils around with first line units:

Not true in the Med, they continued to be the principal front line fighter until about March or April 1942.

I am not sure of your numbers though, it shows for example 40 109Gs in April 1942; but the type didn`t actually entered into production until May, and the first ones were received by high-altitude elements on the Western Front in June 1942.

I saw that too, it may well be an error, I suspect they were fs instead.

[KrazyKraut]

Perhaps this discussion should be moved to a different thread?

[Glider]

Have to agree, I have a number of points that I would comment on but this isn't the place.

[slaterat]

Lots of miss information in this thread.

first :
A complete Merlin 60 series engine weighs in at between 1640 and 1660 lbs.
This includes the entire engine, supercharger, intercooler and carb or fuel injection pump. What it does not include are the underwing radiators, two for engine glycol , one for oil and one for the intercooler glycol.

lets get a fair comparison

a merlin 61/66 27 liters
weight 1640 lbs [includes entire supercharger and intercooler]
hp 1565 at 15 lbs boost
1800 at 18 lbs boost
2000 at 25lbs boost
DB 605 35.7 liters
weight 1584 lbs plus 220 lbs for mw 50 = 1804 lbs
hp 605a 1,475[no mw 50 ?]
605am 1,800 with mw50
605 dc 2,000 with mw50

As you can see both engines got progressively more powerful. The bare block merlin would be smaller and substanially lighter. However with the addition of the two stage two speed supercharger , the weights of the two powerplants are quite close. The intercooled merlin has the ability to take higher boost pressures with out water methanol injection. Different paths to the same goal.



Slaterat